TRANSCRIPT - 154 - A Return to Community with Amber Hawken

[00:00:00] Amber: if you put a group of people around a fire, out in nature, watch what happens to the depth of the moment, the depth of the conversation and the nervous systems. 

What comes out, what is able to be discharged, what is let go of, You will remember, that's right. 

this is what my system feels like when I've removed the stimulation and when I'm no longer isolated from this incredible, incredible world  

[00:00:49] Mel: As humans, we have existed in community since the beginning of time. Yet how we define and live in community in today's modern age is a far cry from what this looked like for our ancestors. One person whom I've had personally learned a great deal from on the healing power of being in community is my mentor and friend Amber Hawkin. 

Amber has graced us here on the podcast on two previous occasions and was one of my very first guests, which was what also sparked our work together over the past five years. Amber facilitates deep remembering, guided by her teachers, her lived experiences, and life's intelligence. She believes that within our bodies lies a great wisdom that the ancients have spoken since the beginning of time. 

She believes that our work is to tend to the distortions within ourselves, allowing this wisdom to flow effortlessly. In today's conversation, I invite Amber to express what it is to attend one of her retreats, which I did myself in September, 2024, and the deep transformation that her work enables whilst being held in that space. 

I. We [00:02:00] also discuss is Ooma the meditation practitioner training that I'm presently participating in under the guidance of Amber and her fellow guide Kurt, where Amber speaks to the depth of learning that we are absorbing and the experience of being in this community. Amber's work centers deeply around rites of passage, ritual, and the power of living within and being part of community, the healing that comes from this work and how our modern ways of living have all but forgotten the transitionary milestones that mark our growth and the acknowledgement of these evolutions within our communities and the challenges that we are facing as a result. 

Starting her career as a radiation therapist, Amber wished to pursue a more preventative approach to supporting people, and now has qualifications in deep state re patterning therapy, mindful based cognitive behavioral therapy, somatic trauma therapy, pranayama within ancient traditions, sutras and creos of yoga, functional, therapeutic and performance, breath work and meditation. 

She has been serving in community and healing with the elements for over 10 years. Aligned with her teachers and her Celtic lineage, Amber deeply ves our natural ability to self-heal and spiritually actualize. For over a decade, she has facilitated thousands through personal healing, spiritual reconnection, and grounding the creative potential. 

Co-creating with her groups to sense, dissolve and realign anything that needs to move. Holding community with firm love, Amber shares with us her perspective on how we can bring this connected approach into our corporate environments and the powerful impact it can have on our people and our business.   

Okay, so I am joined by the lovely Amber Hawkin here today. Thank you so much for joining me, Amber.  

[00:03:56] Amber: Pleasure, Mel. Thank you for having me. 

[00:03:58] Mel: Now Amber, [00:04:00] you've been on the podcast twice before, so this is your third time. So welcome back. Thank you for coming and spending some time with me. 

again. And you and I have had the opportunity to work together for a number of years. 

You were actually like one of the very first guests here on my podcast. And if you go back and listen to that episode, I really had absolutely no understanding of what it is that you do or trying to connect the pieces. And I think I. Over the years, I have learned more and more and I'm getting there and there's still some things that you say, and it doesn't take, it takes me a few years to kind of get it and it resonates. 

And then I think what happens to me is there's a knowing it and there's hearing it, but then there's actually embodying it.  

And that's completely different. And once you can start to embody it, then you really, really get it. And that takes time, I think particularly when I'm learning things that have been completely outside of my comfort zone. 

And one of those, which I've shared recently in another episode was about attending the Alchemy Wrights, retreat at the end of last year. And it's just one of the most incredibly transformational experiences that I have personally experienced. And it played such a big part in my own healing journey. 

But I would love you to share in your own words a little bit about what the Alchemy Wrights experience is so that other people can start to understand it. 'cause there's one way I can explain it, having been through it, but I think you'll do it far more justice explaining it from your perspective.  

[00:05:22] Amber: Thank you. I will do my best to do that. it's actually one of the things I do find most challenging still because it's so, uh, objective, it's such an, an objective view. and you're right. It's when you have experienced it that you can probably have more language for it. so I can share the umbrella and some of the blueprint of it, but I want to caveat and say that it really is such an individual experience because everyone's, uh, point of entry is different. 

Everyone's orientation when they hear of it, or a call to it is so different depending on age, gender, because we have the men's and the [00:06:00] women's, or binary, non-binary, because we've had the mixed and the, kinship one. But if we just. Go down to the core of it. Rites work or rites of passage work represents a transition from one place, and I'm gonna say place within our own world to the next, whether that's marriage, becoming a parent in some cultural traditions, it's losing your teeth. 

You know, that's a rite of passage. It's putting your feet on the ground for the first time. In some indigenous cultures, children do not touch their feet to the ground until they're, until they've, had teeth, you know, come out because of various beliefs. And, in the West, due to a number of reasons, one of them being invasion and colonization, modernity, civilization's being, established that aren't in connection with or a really deep relationship with nature. 

Spirit ancestors, like, um, those that have passed or the animate, if you don't wanna use the word spirit, just think of the same very intelligence that, helps a baby, you know, become an embryo in the broom when the sperm meets the eggs. So it's a, that, that intelligence, that aliveness, that essence. 

A lot of indigenous cultures, including all of us, you and I, all of our ancestors were once indigenous. When colonization happens, usually there's a fracture in those relationships to nature. There's a fracture, in the relationship to community fracture in the relationship to this greater thing that, as soon as we name, we, we lose that which makes everything alive and come to life. 

And what this means is that. We lose contact with a cyclical way of being. we create summer, all year round or whatever temperature we want to. We temperature control, we light control. we light pollute, we air pollute, um, as a result. And that disconnection from cycles means that we [00:08:00] don't, notice transitions between Right now we are at the equinox, where we're going into autumn, and we are disconnected from those transitions in nature because of these fractures that I'm speaking to. 

And therefore, we often disconnect from these transitions in our life for women, uh, when we have our first bleed. That's a huge transition. As a woman, it's so significant on a biological level, a physiological level, a spiritual level, an emotional, um. Hormonal level, and usually a community level like society, the role changes, the relationship changes, the self relationship changes. 

And that's, in most cultures, I'm saying most because I don't know one that doesn't, but I need to honor that I'll have gaps in my knowledge. You know, I can't know everything, but, um, indigenous cultures across the world have always celebrated, honored, and grieved, supported and facilitated ritual and ceremony during these transitions because they're so significant and because the role changes in community. 

So the purpose changes in the community. So the sense of self changes in community, and without a acknowledgement of this, it's happening. With the example of, of matriarchy when we first start bleeding as women, it's actually suppressed a lot. You know, there's a lot of hormonal suppressant, a lot of shame, a lot of pushing it away. 

It's something that is, uh, an irritant, something to be controlled. And we are seeing the significant side effects of, of this one example that I'm speaking to alone. that's a expertise area that I like, I'm not an expert in, but you can go and explore if you're listening and you're curious about that, someone like Jane Hardwick Collins would be someone to go and explore that with. 

So the consequence of not having these explorations, these celebrations, ceremonies, ritual and acknowledgement of [00:10:00] transitions means that the change happens and it is happening. Inside of us and attempting to be really a part of our growth and our expansion as a human being in relationship to self and life and nature and our community. 

But because it's not there, there's almost like this undercurrent of grief that just lingers. it's like a, a snake that didn't ever shed its skin, you know? So if you just imagine this backed up layers of layers of layers of skin that we didn't get to shed and how that makes us stagnant and how that slows us down and how that makes us feel suffocated and how we don't allow ourselves to be reshaped and changed and grow, which is a core part of who we are. 

Uh, when we go through these transitions, relationally is different in community and we're relational beings like we need to. we understand through science, and study and research of this area that there is a part of our brain that's developed. It's a, you know, the prefrontal cortex relational aspect of our brain. 

If we do not develop healthy relationships in our earlier formative years, it impacts the way that we can relate for the rest of our life to ourselves and to everything around us. It actually changes our biology and our development on every level. So it's a modern way to honor transition. It's a modern way to give us an opportunity to look at that or to give space to liminal. 

because rites of passage is you need to remove yourself from your normal environment. You go through an experience and then you return. This can be an inward journey. It can be, you know, in community, it's an outward journey. But if anyone who has had children knows that for some time during those first years of becoming apparent that everything [00:12:00] is so changed and so dismantled in your life and chaos and obliterated, and you don't know, often there's a sense of not knowing who you are, not knowing what you want, what used to bring you joy, doesn't bring you joy. 

What you used to be able to do, you cannot do anymore. And. This is so disregarded. It's not even looked at. And we have the nuclear family structure now, which before there were, you know, in hunter gatherer research, there's plenty of research and plenty of understanding that 95% of human existence, we lived in hunter gatherer communities of, you know, 30 to 50 people where multiple people, where everyone really parented the children and reared the children. 

And, um, now there's the nuclear family unit there's so much to handle and that changes and to carry, that you just have to carry on. You know, there's no pausing to honor that this is happening. There's no grief, there's no community support about it. And my career is essentially holding space for that acknowledgement to come through, which is, Fucking ugly and full of rage and pain and, and then beauty on the other side as well, and it's just, it's, it's a really essential part of our nature to honor these transitions, to honor these rights. and I'm talking to the, the female aspect o of it or the, that we did, because it's, it's relevant to you, but it's so relevant in so many different areas of our life. 

Like I said, marriage and for the men, it's very different for women in the, in the old ways. in the old stories, you will, there's a lot of talk that women self initiate because we bleed. So there's self-initiation where a man need to go out and have that initiation, particularly going from boy to man. 

and we see the significant cultural, implications and negative, ripple effect. Through our families and through our societies and through our world globally. When men don't have this opportunity to go and self [00:14:00] initiate or be initiated by community and be acknowledged by other men, there is this deep yearning that in them that is never met. 

So they, often go out and create these initiations. IE go and get absolutely obliterated by alcohol or, push the boundaries. 'cause it's about pushing the boundaries and pushing the edge and facing your death and facing your mortality. So when that is not channeled somewhere in a healthy way, held by other men, held and witnessed by other men or, or community, and elders of those who have walked before them, those who can initiate, then they will just self create it because it's in our blueprints, in our DNA, it's in our nature. 

And so we see the, catastrophic effect that that has on, um, young men who actually don't ever really develop. And you have these boys inside. Men's bodies, which we're, we're seeing the consequence of that worldwide right now as well. 

[00:14:50] Mel: it's such deep work, and I know that with each retreat that you guys run, and there's a team of you that run this and you bring a very mixed skillset to these, they're very much responsive to the people that are attending. Like, they're not a, you know, this is the routine and here's the agenda and this is what we run. 

Like I know how responsive and reflective it is of the people that are coming and where they're at in their lives, what they're facing at that present time, and as a collective group, what they actually need. And I really like that analogy that you used at the snake because that idea of being held. 

constricted and bound by these layers and layers and layers of things that you haven't been able to shed over time. I think you described exactly how I was feeling when I walked into Alchemy. Like there was just this suffocation and this constriction and this feeling of just being completely bound and not being able to, to move. 

And by the end of it, and when I had left, like there was just so much expansiveness, so much more space, I could feel like I could finally breathe again. That all of that stagnant energy that had been stuck in my body and that was making me feel really sick and lethargic [00:16:00] had just kind of evaporated it had gone. 

And it's very hard to communicate to someone like what that experience and I kind of give them insights into some of the, the things that we did while we were there and  

yeah, they think I'm mad and they think it's hilarious. So like they love retelling these stories for me, which is even more cool, but I think it's just. 

It's such an experience, but I think this work is really, really so important. And you know exactly what you were just talking to there about having the opportunity to, to experience this and let these things out in a healthy way, because otherwise they do manifest in our bodies and They come out as either health and, emotional issues within ourselves, and that then projects out into our communities and that then there's a ripple effect that happens from there. 

So, it's just an, an incredible experience and I know you guys are reinventing this whole experience at the moment, so stay tuned to what that might look like. but off the back of the retreat, like I had such a much deeper connection to myself that I didn't wanna go back into the everyday world and lose that. 

And so off the back of that, I then joined the Ioma a meditation program with yourself and Kurt and yeah, so initially this was really about. Maintaining and keeping some of that magic and not falling or lapsing back into old ways of, you know, returning back into the world because, you know, you do come back from the retreat quite changed. 

I know I sat on my bedroom floor for two weeks trying to figure out who the hell I was and what I wanted to do with my life and what was going on, and I was gonna quit my job and I was gonna like not work and like, like everything kind of had to recalibrate and clearly that didn't eventuate. I just had to find a new way of being and a new way of adjusting what I wanted from my own personal life back into my work life and my family and everything else. 

And as we are starting to now near closer to the end of the I, so a program, like I have learned that this is so much [00:18:00] more than just meditation. There is so much more that I have learn through this process and some of it makes absolute perfect sense to me. Like it's rational, it's logical, I get it. But there is so much that I. 

Can't gather, it's not tangible to me. And it's, again, I can look at you really blankly and go, I have no idea what the hell you're talking about. And it takes me time to kind of process it. And like I said at the start of this episode, it was like, when I've been working with you, sometimes it's taken me two or three years for that thing that you said to kind of land. 

Then I go, oh, now I get it. Like, now I understand it. So again, I would love for you to tell us what is I so a meditation practitioner training all about? And why have you. 

and Kurt decided that this is something important to bring out into the world?  

[00:18:49] Amber: Thank you for giving that opportunity. Again, I'm gonna do my best to put words to it because you're right. It's, it's, we venture into the intangible, but the, the purpose is to actually make it something that can be, moved into anybody of work. And one of our guest speakers, uh, who's a dear friend of mine, Michael Gay, who's the head of the Gestalt Institute in the Rockies in Colorado. 

I was talking to him just yesterday about this and the development of is Omr and this round that we did here, he was asking how it was going. cause we're talking about the next round. And I said, it's just, it really to the core of it. Um, if you're hearing the word meditation, think of more of a, less of something that you do to get an outcome and more of the way that you. Engage with your work and engage with the people that you're supporting, or engage in life in general and engage in yourself. And there's a term called Contact that was coined by Martin Uba in the sixties, I believe. 

Uh, he's a philosopher. He was, [00:20:00] um, a therapist. And this term he describes as being in contact with someone, has the essence of direct, honest, intense, ineffable and intimate. So it's, it's a moment. It's a, it's a, that's the way that it's described contact. And so it's physical, energetic, spiritual, and emotional presence. 

So it's those, call it like the four different bodies. You can still have your intellect and everything, you know, you can have your blueprints, your knowledge, your research, your science. I studied medicine. I I appreciate that aspect. I, I get it. But moving only through the, the mind and moving only through the intellect is just so limiting. 

When we have so much more intelligence moving through us, we have so much more wisdom available to be able to support people. And back to the, the fracture in relationship with this animate and this, these other aspects of intelligences that are within us, which science are catching up, they're understanding that the heart and the gut have its own brain. 

and so I soma the intelligence of soma, intelligence of the body, the wisdom of the body and meditation in this state of deep presence is a. 

Remembering, I would say, of the way in which we can facilitate learning, change, healing, leadership, uh, holding of community, parenting, friendship, self relationship that is repairing, that's incredibly nourishing and establishes a healthy relationship between if we put it in, [00:22:00] practitioner client for a moment of power. 

So for a very long time, particularly in the therapeutic aspect or the psychology aspect, or even the healing aspect, uh, you know, the, the healing arts there is this, whether it's conscious or unconscious, dynamic of power that one has, that the, the practitioner or the therapist or the teacher holds the, the wisdom, whereas this way of working, it is not like that. 

It is an acknowledgement that the person that you are working with has their own wisdom, has their own intelligence, and that there is also, a more alive, adamant force that we can allow ourselves to be influenced by safely. Because protection is, is important to bring into that facilitation or that leadership or that parenting, whatever, whatever dynamic it is, and allow it to be something that unfolds. 

Through the way that you are as a practitioner as opposed to what you are doing, your skill sets are exponentially amplified and more accurate with this quality of embodied presence, with this quality of contact. another, one of the qualities of contact is that you allow yourself to be influenced and you influence. 

So it's a two-way movement and there is a strict, particularly in ioma, A, a strict understanding that you are not to merge, that you are not to take on, that you understand your boundaries, that there is healthy respect, and reverence for those that you are holding. but that you are separate. So you're not merging, you're, there's, there's no transference, you know, there's no projection. 

There's, there is an essential quality of self responsibility as a practitioner to not think yourself [00:24:00] in the position of the healer or the powerful one, or the all knowing one, but also to know where your boundaries are. Because so many people in our world, do not have, an awareness of where their boundary is and where it begins and where it ends, and, and then therefore how to, allow it to be an empowering relationship and an empowering experience for that person that you are with. 

So it's a really more about how you are, and this is back to my conversation with Michael of saying like, what. What I've loved the most is seeing that towards the end of it, as we are doing the, the live sessions, that, that you as a part of the group, you are understanding really that it's not so much the steps. 

It's not so much the cycle. It's not so much the information like that stuff. It matters. It's there. The frameworks are there for that aspect of our brain, you know, to kind of relax. But it's actually how you are. It's the quality of your, your presence and how you're holding yourself, which requires you to work with your. 

Capacity to be that present with yourself and be that aware and self-aware of the subtleness of what's going on inside of you. all of you and all of those emotional, spiritual, physical, energetic layers to be able to invite someone into that place of depth because it's that orientation from that place that it really, really invites deep change. 

[00:25:34] Mel: Yeah, that's a really good summary I think because from the conversations I've had with people, I say, I'm doing my meditation practice, and they're like, oh, what kind of meditation practitioner training? I'm like, I don't know what are, what are the different types? Like I do these things. And I think what I have realized is, again, like this has been almost a six month  

journey through this process and. To what you're saying there, it [00:26:00] really is about knowing yourself, understanding your own boundaries, understanding you know, your own emotions, how your, how those feelings and sensations are arising in your body. Because until you have that really clear connection and depth of you know, understanding of your, of yourself, it's very difficult for you to hold capacity for somebody else or to be with them in their emotional state depending on where they're at, and to be that regulator for them because you're in yourself unregulated. 

So even before you are supporting someone else or sitting in meditation or a coaching session or any type of other environment with somebody else, the work that you have done to build that stability within yourself. That has been probably the most beneficial thing that I have gotten from this work. It has absolutely enabled me to, take that intention from joining the program and to bring that back into my everyday life. 

And it has expanded that intention exponentially to be able to do something like that. So if somebody asked me what type of meditation I do, I say, I sit here and I listen. You know, I listen to music and I'm very quiet and I quiet my mind and I sit with myself like that is what I do. It's not transcendental or any of these other types of modalities, but I think it is a way of being and it anyone ever gets the opportunity to meet Kurt. 

Kurt is, like this walking meditation constantly. Like  

[00:27:31] Amber: he definitely  

[00:27:32] Mel: he is.  

like the zen master. Like there he is, just chills all the time. And I think that is. 

just the true embodiment of this work. It's just that he is so centered and so stable within himself.  

[00:27:47] Amber: He's so clear within, there's so much clarity inside of him. Yeah. Because he can actually, he can still access fire, he can still access all of those different aspects. but upon his [00:28:00]call.  

[00:28:00] Mel: Yeah. It's not an emotional reaction, it's a chosen reaction.  

[00:28:04] Amber: And he still allows himself to be activated, but he knows how to, he really has absolute conscious choice of how to work with that and be with that.  

[00:28:13] Mel: Hmm. Yeah.  

It's aspirational  

and it's  

nice having someone like that to go, oh, this, this is a possibility. Like this is  

this is where we could go with this. So it's been an Incredible. journey and something that I've really, really enjoyed. and it's something that I think has actually really helped me just generally, but also back into my work as well. 

So I wanna loop back a little bit to The ancestral rites of passage that you, you spoke about, because a lot of the work that I do is in that space of building community. It's a core foundation principle in the work that I do. within that, I talk about rites of passage within a com, like in a corporate context,  

because if we think about rites of passage within a corporate context, It's, 

about, well, I need to do these things and gain these skills in order to transcend to that next level. 

Like for me to be promoted, I have to be able to do these things.  

We talk about routine and ritual in terms of the way that we celebrate, the way that we meet,  

like what are those patterns of behavior that we see within our organization to bring us together? And I think there's some. contextual overlaps here, but I'd like to sort of understand from your perspective, how do you sort of see those things or where do you think there's an opportunity to really expand that thinking into more of a corporate or a workplace environment? 

For those that are listening into this conversation, because it's their historically, like, we've done  

that and the work that you are doing is in these sorts of the fringes of that. But where can we bring this back into something that I think is a bit more mainstream? Because I think there's an absolute opportunity to do that there and to really embed these sorts of ways of being into our organizations and the way that we operate. [00:30:00] 

[00:30:01] Amber: Yeah. I agree, and I am grateful that. You're thinking in that way and moving in that way, and that you're doing what you're doing. It's so needed. the first thing that I would just from this point of view recommend is establishing community, which you do, it's your, the core of what you do. 

But really, so I've worked in corporate before. I've been invited into that corporate place. I've worked in schools, I've worked in really high-end, a lot of high-end private schools. So I'm speaking from, having been in the inside. I've always worked in hospital system as well. And a lot of the events that I've been invited to, Or was a part of when I was in those systems, were organized almost as a tick box. Okay, we've done the community thing, or we have done the morning tea, or we have done the social thing and you know, cool. But really the person, at the center of that, or I would more so recommend people, not just one person, it needs to be something inside of them that they really understand. 

So of yourself, you get the essential part of it and you don't have to, um, have done a course or something like that. It just actually has to be a part of you that really appreciates and feels in your marrow. what community can give back to the organization or the organization of community and the prioritization of that, because. 

If I think back to, uh, some of my training with my teachers, one of them being, Peter Levi, the founder of Somatic Experiencing, he's a psychologist. he's been doing this work for 40 years or more. there's something that I remember from those studies in that research being that if there was a catastrophic event or a traumatic event in community, say a shooting at a school or, an earthquake or a tsunami or something happened, you know, even invasion or colonization, the studies showed that those who [00:32:00] reentered back into community and those who went back into more isolated environments, those who were in community. 

Did not, or held less trauma, did not show signs of, or did not, express PTSD because so many reasons. And he doesn't actually say because why. But knowing the signs behind it and the understanding behind, uh, particularly somatic experiencing. But from my, my studies and viewpoint from community and rights work, that there is a biological relaxation that happens and a opportunity for energetic discharge of the part of the nervous system that was so heightened but unable to express itself. 

It was not unable to, run, you know, fight, flight. and therefore, energetically, even though the situation was over, if that wasn't able to be discharged, like a zebra shaking off, that. High vault energy going through the system when they needed to run away from a predator. in community, there's an opportunity for that to be naturally discharged, you know, through various ways. 

So people are, we know that people are, experiencing much more stress on the system than ever before. Even just through, the high levels of wifi, the light exposure, the environments that they have, the, the air that we breathe, the food that we eat, let alone, the lack of really well established relationships that feel so nourishing. 

from my experience in the workplace, that is very rare for that to be standard throughout the organization, for each person to feel that they are part of the community and welcomed no matter what level they are on or where they sit in the pecking line. you know, actually quite the opposite. 

And there's a lot of judgment, a lot of bickering, a lot of fighting for, there's quite a scarcity and segregation and isolation in that. and a lot of people are showing up to try and be accepted and to try and be invited in. But, that's often not the case, whether that's because of, uh, their own [00:34:00]relationship with self or the quality of the, um, it comes from the top as we know, uh, the top down. 

you know, so the quality of the relationships up top or the quality of, the way in which the leader, the top people, organize themselves with the rest of, the organization. So it can be a way in which. The whole organization can function more efficiently, effectively, in a way that's not about, trying to meet just performance reviews and expectations and KPIs, or trying to be accepted in a place that they don't feel. 

But actually because there is a healthy, a really healthy, sincere thread of connection and community where people really care about each other, like they really actually care, and that there are some kind of engagement in fun or joy or acknowledgement of what's going on in, people's lives. It doesn't have to be therapy sessions. 

You don't have to sit down in circle and say, Hey, my name is Mel and I, you know, it's, it doesn't need to be like that. But where there's an actual opportunity for people to talk a little bit below the surface. And that's not just, you know, think about contact, honest. Deep, intimate, intense, ineffable. 

Very few people are okay with that level of intimacy. It's not encouraged. In fact, it's discouraged. Get on with it. We don't have time for that. 

[00:35:20] Mel: Yeah. 

And there's been a big shift from that, way of thinking. You know, certainly throughout my career, I remember, you know, when I first started, if I had suggested putting in a breakout space or tables and chairs in a lunchroom, oh my god, I would've been like shot dead.  

Whereas now, the table's completely flipped and that's the majority of the workspace these days. 

So there's definitely an acknowledgement that that socialization and that level of connection  

is absolutely necessary in workplaces. But then there's the cultural practices that need to sit underneath that to  

facilitate and support that. And I think that's where you are getting at. And I wholeheartedly agree because without this. 

Ability [00:36:00] for people to feel that sense of belonging and that sense of connection and the building of those relationships. You don't have those foundational requirements that you need for building community. And so if we are wanting to look at our workplaces as community, and that's why I referenced it as community as opposed to culture, because I think culture is extremely insular. 

When we start to think about community, we think about it more broadly in terms of our stakeholders, our suppliers,  

the our clients, the ripple effect of those that are impacted by what we do as an organization. It's much more broad and it starts to become more holistic and  

more considered as opposed to being this sort of internally focused thing, which is very much about culture. 

We start to think a bit more broadly.  

[00:36:44] Amber: Absolutely. can I add something to that, that just popped to mind as you said that? Thank you. This is probably a very unpopular thing to say, but a decentralization of the benefits of the organization being only to the top people. You know? Yes, people have, superannuation and some have different benefits and all those kinds of things. 

But honestly, what I have found, and this is why, this is what I'm changing and what I do, um, I have multiple practitioners, but I'm, I'm at the top and well known. You know, we pay our crew really well, you know, if not more than what they would charge, because for me, there's an investment of energy. There's a deep acknowledgement of what they give beyond just their skillset. 

and we share as much as possible. I encourage people to go to those facilitators, should they call them, you know, and openly speak to that. But something that I'm doing moving forward is everything is going to be in co-creation. And the distribution reflecting the input, in a different way, which, in big organizations, that's a complete destruction and restructure. 

That's very, very difficult. But in all honesty, a lot of people are going to work because they have to earn money to pay their rent. you know, they don't [00:38:00] actually feel like they're contributing really, really, really, really, really, really, really, really deeply contributing 'cause. 

And if we look back at our ancestral ways, everyone had a role that was absolutely essential. it wasn't so replaceable. It wasn't so like a, a turntable like that. And that, I think that that's a really big aspect of it. 

[00:38:19] Mel: Yeah. 

it's that sense of meaningful work that I have a sense of purpose, that I'm actually valued and contributing here, and therefore I'm an integral part of the system. And without me, you know, the system cannot function. and this is something that I've been speaking about for a while, is this sense of really identifying that meaningful work, but also giving people an understanding of how their own role within an organization contributes to the delivery of the purpose of the business. 

And there's one phrase that I, I refer to quite a bit, and it's, When JFK went to visit the guys at NASA when they were in the space race against the, the USSR to get to the moon and JF K's walking down the, the hallway. And he says to the janitor, he said, what is it that you do here? And he turns to him and he says, Mr. 

President, I'm here to put a man on the moon. And so even the janitor could see the important role and that meaningful work that he was contributing to the functioning of that to make sure that everybody could do their jobs to get that man on the moon  

in that space race. So that's that sense of commitment and meaningful work, and that's where discretionary effort stems in. 

And  

everybody goes that little bit further because they, they feel that sense of,  

that need and that Contribution  

[00:39:31] Amber: and the reciprocity being, more of a, a reflection of that contribution is important. And also the, the wellbeing, um, mental, emotional, physical, spiritual. Because, you know, as an example, when communities gathered and they would, either pray and not in the, this is just what my mind goes to because I went to a Catholic school, private Catholic school, not pray as in, You know, there is one person who has all the answers and they are controlling our life. Not in that sense. I mean, speak [00:40:00] to and have proper established relationship with nature. with those that have passed, you know, people that die in community, become ancestors, there's still a significant aspect of contribution that they make, and it's understood. 

And that's why death is, um, very much ritualized and ceremonies. But my point that I'm getting to is that everyone's wellbeing on each of those mental, emotional, physical, spiritual levels is everyone's problem. So if someone signif, you know, if someone died, the whole community would gather and help be a part of that grief, healing, and that expression, because should one person be, pent up with anger or rage or grief or sadness or depression or sickness, that would have a significant impact on the community. 

Whereas. You just take a sick day.  

[00:40:45] Mel: Yeah.  

[00:40:47] Amber: Yeah. and I know that it like, it's like really, really big 10 x thinking of changing organizations. like it is so big, to think, well, how would we really take care? How would we really do that? but it's my belief that all of the organizations that don't do that will crumble eventually in the next a hundred years. 

They will. 

[00:41:08] Mel: And I love that you brought that back in because that's something you've shared earlier in the trainings and the work that we've done together. And I really resonate with that. The fact that we have lost this sense of community where we are looking out for each other, we're taking care of one another, and if  

one person is sick, then the whole community is sick. 

Like that sense of wellbeing and consideration for each other, that doesn't seem to exist in our modern day society the way that it did, let alone within our organizations. I think there's pockets of it, but not as widespread as it may have once been.  

[00:41:46] Amber: Yeah, well, we established civilizations and lost those larger relationships. 

[00:41:51] Mel: Yeah. Now, you mentioned then about nature, and this is one point that I really wanna touch on, is that at one point, throughout. Our [00:42:00] trainings and our conversations. You reflected back to me the importance of nature in building community. Can you just share your thoughts with us on this? 

[00:42:09] Amber: Yeah. it's so big that I'm just taking a moment to orient where I wanna speak to it from. 

It is becoming, um, you know, relationship with nature is making, its way more to the bigger platforms and, there's a lot of people such as, you know, we spoke about Zach Bush earlier. but I really don't know if listening to a podcast, even a, with someone with an established relationship is, able to speak to the depths of what I want to, get across. So 

I'll use my son as an example because if, if, if I can teach it to a 3-year-old, that we  

[00:42:49] Mel: We've got some hope.  

[00:42:50] Amber: what? So what I'm trying to do as a, as a mother, and I'm sure I'm making many mistakes, but here's something that I'm. Doing my best to do is not hide the cycle of life to my son. If there's a bird on the road, which I happen to see a lot of, I dunno why often hit or dead or, injured, I'll pull up and if it's dead, we will try to get its body off the road so it doesn't get getting hit and run over by cars. 

And, you know, as long as it's safe, it's so far, it's been safe situations or if it's, injured, we will, you know, call someone and take it home. So we, we, I'm trying to tend to the wildlife and, and often we have seen a lot of dead animals. And so the start of life is with death. You go into a rainforest, look at the floor, everything is dead, everything is rotting, and things are growing from it. 

and. As a collective, particularly in the West, we look away from death. We look away from how life begins. We look away from nature. We look away from our nature. That is our nature. another thing that when we're eating eggs for breakfast, I talk about the chicken that it came from and [00:44:00] that the chicken ate, grass or ate seeds or whatever it ate from the earth. 

And we go and look and, you know, I've taken him to farms and stuff like that to understand. And if we eat chicken, I tell him this was killed and it is now on our plate. And we are eating that animal. And then that animal, you know, are part of the cycle for us to eat, if we choose to eat animals, you know, and just trying to give him more of a understanding that if we don't have. 

Nature. If we don't have the earth, if we don't have clean river streams, if we don't take care of what we do to the water, if we don't take care of what we do to the earth, if we put choose to, pollute and rubbish, we get sick and die.  

And we are so removed from that. Like when was the last time that you went to a funeral because the person got bitten by a snake and died, or, you know, stepped on a, poisonous plant and it, you know, paralyzed you and your heart stopped you. 

It's not like we're really disconnected. We're saved from the dangers of nature. We are saved from looking at our own mortality to do with nature. Just recently, we had the cyclone come on the east coast and it was a really big conversation in our home of being like. Nature can wipe us out. I just sat and watched the series of Life on Earth with my son and talked him through, you know, the five, apocalypses where nature wiped itself out again and started again, and it wiped itself out and started again and wiped itself out and started again. 

At the end of it, it's the Morgan Freeman one on Netflix. Great. If anyone's not watched it, and at the end he's like, you know, we're, we're well on our way to the sixth apocalypse,  

but that we're creating, that we're aware, we're creating and aware of how to fix, but we're so many of us are not because it's hidden. 

it's out of sight because we can change temperature, lighting everything. We can have what we want very immediately and easily accessible [00:46:00] in the west often, and we're very far removed even right now. I hope this is okay to speak to. Right now, Israel they were meant to stop killing the Palestinians. 

And they, three days ago, they started back up again. And I think I saw this morning that there were something close to 400 people killed in three days. You know, one person every six minutes. And these are our people. We are in some way, shape or form, related and connected, but it's easy for us to turn away and just look away because, well, maybe it's uncomfortable or what are we gonna do? 

Or, well, it's not us, and we have this privilege that's so sickening that this is happening because I know that even for a second, if we think about what is happening to those children that. There were six people, including children amputated, but there was no anesthesia left in the hospitals. imagine your child having a limb amputated without anesthesia and just getting bombed and the rest of the world just being like, can't, what are we gonna do? 

It's like that's what happens when we're disconnected from nature because they're actually a part of our community and that's the damage we are, we are witnessing, we are living the damage of what is done when we don't have connection with nature because the connection with nature reminds us of, reminds us of our mortality and our insignificance, but of our responsibility to be in relationship with and to care for that nature because it provides everything for us and it can wipe us out in any second. 

[00:47:29] Mel: Hmm.  

[00:47:30] Amber: It is such a big question and there's so many ways we can take that, but please if I didn't answer that. Well, like feel free to reprompt me. 

[00:47:39] Mel: No, and look, I think the depth of it is, is there and like I think it's hard to really communicate in a lot of ways. But I think also, from my own perspective, we create these environments and we are putting people in concrete boxes and they are. We are all so [00:48:00] disconnected from nature itself and there's been studies done on nature deprivation and how that's then impacting on our health and our gut microbiome and everything else, you know, our mental health as well because we are dysregulated, because we have lost touch with those cycles. 

And that the way that the world's nature moves and I think there's some real opportunity there for us to be reminded of that connection to nature. And you know, as you said, the what goes into our river stadiums eventually goes into us and how that cycle, you know, continues. But I just think there's so much opportunity there for people to have that. 

Reestablishment and connection because some of the work that I've been doing lately, we've even just been looking at like the mycelium network that connects trees together.  

And you know, this is the fungal network that sits underneath the ground  

and it connects into all the different trees. 

And If one tree is sick, it sends out a signal via this little network and the other trees revert their nutrients to support and help rejuvenate that one tree. And I think understanding how we live in relationship to each other in that same way, I think there's that knowledge that's been lost over time. 

[00:49:18] Amber: If you want to be reminded of what is possible, when we reestablish our relationship in nature with community, go out and stay in nature for 24 hours.  

go out and stay in nature for 24 hours. And something that I was thinking about when I was watching this, um, this show with my son, ' cause he was sick this week, and so we spent a bit of time, each day watching a little bit of the episodes was when Man first found fire. 

And how our consciousness accelerated exponentially because we sat around and we gathered around nature. We, we gathered around this element around fire [00:50:00] and that literally since then, if you put humans, if you put a group of people around a fire, out in nature, watch what happens to the depth of the moment, the depth of the conversation and the nervous systems. 

What comes out, what is able to be discharged, what is let go of, the stories that are told, which in that connection, because of our, the way that we are wired to be relational beings, how 

profoundly healing and repairing that is just to be around a fire that done for a few hours has a profound effect. A few hours taking communities into nature, even for a few hours in that way you will feel you don't have to think about it. You will remember, that's right. 

this is what my system feels like when I've removed the stimulation and when I'm no longer isolated from this incredible, incredible world that we have around us. Like we've moved, now we're not across from the beach anymore, but I have a mountain behind me  

and I look at the back and I'm in awe. 

I get, you know, like what it is so big and all these different trees and all the birds, like, I'm so immersed and it is such a different experience than we used to live in a canal of looking at someone's. Backyard. Oh my God, how did I do that for four years? so it's, it's really like, we feel it and we know it. 

Something we feel and know. And there's something really, really profound and special about taking people into the will. You know, it doesn't even have to be wilderness, but into nature. 

[00:51:34] Mel: Yeah. 

No, I completely agree. And I think, as corporate organizations having that opportunity to do that as a team and the depth of relationship that would be built and the, the community that comes from that, I think there's some incredible opportunities in doing that.  

And that kind of brings me back around to, We've kind of touched on already, but where do you think organizations could really start as a [00:52:00] first start stepping stone in strengthening that connection to community in their own workplace? Like if you gave them one piece of advice and with the organizations that you've already been working with, what would be that one thing that you think that would really start to, you know, move the needle in the right direction?  

[00:52:15] Amber: It has to start from the top. 

So whether or not the bigger groups put forward to the top to say, we can't move forward unless this is a part of how we work as an organization, or whether the person listening realizes Yeah. It all, you know, and I know that from working in the corporate, it's the way to sell the, the course or the thing is like, yeah, it's gonna move your bottom dollar a hundred percent. 

[00:52:40] Mel: It's gonna make  

[00:52:41] Amber: And you're gonna look great on, you know, because you're gonna be doing all these things for your community. But seriously, it will change the way that you experience life itself in the impact of your organization and the contribution. But the relationship of the person who makes the decisions at the top with themselves and with their leadership teams needs to then be filtered right down through everyone so that there is a, a, a rebalance of that. 

but honestly, if that's not available, the thing that came to mind was establishing a routine. Because if, if that's not there yet, if they're not there yet, then establishing a routine and ritual of coherence, practice and relationship to the breath. like when you arrive, when you break and before you leave, because that will create enough shift inside  

to then understand the shift that's possible when the whole thing changes to a more coherent, harmonious state. 

Yeah, 

[00:53:42] Mel: And for those that aren't familiar with coherence, that's regulated breath, so even rhythmic breathing, do you just wanna explain  

what that does to us physiologically and why that's actually really important? 'cause there, it's not just some woowoo thing,  

it's scientific.  

[00:53:59] Amber: Would [00:54:00] be my pleasure. most of the wewe thing is only proven by science later. proceeded with science, but the coherence breath is through the nose. And it's using the diaphragm. So the diaphragm is that, that big muscle, you know, in the, in the middle of your abdomen, that moves up and down and expands. 

So most people breathe through the, the top of the chest. So you wanna breathe through the nose as slow and smooth as possible because that activates that muscle and it makes it, it makes it work. And so when you breathe, evenly and rhythmically, and by evenly I mean you can start with four counts in, and then four counts out through the nose. 

So you inhale for four and then you exhale for four. That smooth even rhythmic breath for, I think it's nine minutes. I need to, uh, scrub up on that. But it will completely reset the system as far as, hormonal balance and. It will take you from a state of stress and activation into a state of coherence and calm and steadiness. 

So you'll become centered again. So it changes your psychology, your, emotional state and your capacity to be able to focus. and it's a resilience builder. And it's a regulator. in general, if you can establish the communication to your body that this is the state we operate from, as opposed to this is where we go to because we're so fucking overwhelmed, but this is the state we operate from. 

Just by doing two minutes of that five times a day for three weeks, your system will begin to go there in your day-to-day operation life. And you will notice just when that, you know, you want your heartbeat to uh, sorry. Your breath count to be about six to eight breaths per minute because it's of higher than that. 

Then you're going into a cortisol stress state.  

[00:55:51] Mel: Mm.  

[00:55:52] Amber: So your heart rate variability, which we want it to be nice and long and high and smooth will change. So the HeartMath Institute is, where I studied [00:56:00] this at, the heart rate variability ability will increase, which maximizes your energetic capacity throughout your day. 

It also enhances your quality of sleep, which energizes you for the next day and so on and so forth. 

[00:56:12] Mel: Yeah. Your ability to deal with stress and think more clearly  

[00:56:16] Amber: Yep.  

[00:56:17] Mel: makes a big difference.  

And Amber, you are actually joining us at the exhale retreat that's  

coming up in October. and you're gonna be taking us through a breath work session, which is gonna be a little bit more intensive than cohesive, breathing, but it's an incredible experience to just. 

Again, to start to shift some of that really stagnant energy that gets stuck in your body and to shed some of that skin that's constricting and binding you. But I'm really really excited and looking forward to, um, that experience in October.  

[00:56:51] Amber: Me too. Thank you so much for the invitation. 

[00:56:53] Mel: My pleasure. Is there anything else that you would like to share with our listeners today before we wrap up?  

[00:57:00] Amber: I just want to encourage you to follow that pull. If you are curious to what happens to you, if you're really kind to each other in the places that you work at, if you actually pause and someone sharing something with you, pause and listen. Not because you want them to feel better, because deep down, we then want. 

To feel better, but because you actually are showing deep care and just notice the difference that it makes in your day as you move through with a sincerity of care for each other.  

[00:57:32] Mel: Yeah. 

absolutely agree that presence and contact  

makes a massive difference. Thank you so much for joining us today, and thank you so much for the conversation that we've had for sharing so much of your knowledge. Um, it's just, it's been incredible to have you in my life for the last five years and I really enjoy the opportunity to be able to share everything about you with so many more people through you being here today on the podcast. 

So thank you so much for doing that for me.  

[00:57:59] Amber: I'm so honored. [00:58:00] Thank you for having me for half a.  

[00:58:03] Mel: It's been fabulous. Thank you.