TRANSCRIPT - 155 - Maximising Northrop's Investment Opportunity with Stephen Fryer

[00:00:00] Stephen: creating a space where people would suddenly think of an idea and then go off to a quiet space where they could actually advance that idea with the right tech and the right support infrastructure. I think has really started bring back those things that made us great.

 before Covid. Today is a very special episode. We are going to take a deep dive into a workplace project that community have recently wrapped up with our client, Northrop, a national engineering consultancy. Now, rather than take you on what could be a very dry, chronological recount of the project, what we did and how we did it, we are gonna be discussing something far more significant and impactful.

[00:00:59] Melissa: I've invited our [00:01:00] incredible client, Steven Fryer, the Greater Sydney lead at Northrop, to join me and share how he used this workplace project as a trigger for cultural transformation and a step change in Northrop's leadership capability. I. Steven had a vision. He saw the opportunity that this project presented and sought to maximize the return on that investment.

At every turn, he has been a huge advocate for not just delivering financial returns on every square meter of space, but to create a space that would fundamentally reshape their culture. A return that is seeing Northrop reap rewards far beyond the financials alone. Steven's vision for the project meant that Northrop's approach was more than just a new office.

It was about maximizing this rare opportunity in a company's lifecycle to optimize the workplace beyond simply providing desks for their people to work Provid. It was about changing mindsets, empowering leaders to lead change, and [00:02:00] embedding new and dynamic ways of working. I can't wait to introduce you to Steven and hear how reimagining physical spaces can also lead to profound organizational change, elevating both the business and its people. 

Welcome to the podcast, Steven, and thank you so much for joining me today.

[00:02:23] Stephen: Thanks, Mel. It's a pleasure to be here.

[00:02:25] Melissa: So to give us some context, why don't we start with a little bit about Northrop and your role there within the company.

[00:02:32] Stephen: So Northrop is an engineering consultancy business based on the east coast of Australia. We've got about 500 people working for us, and we mainly focus on land development type projects with the built form, as we, we call it here. Yeah, we've been in business for about 50 years now and looking to um, I suppose take on a new challenging market now.

And we're actually really looking at how we engage with our people and, and the way we offer our services to actually take us into the future. 

[00:02:56] Melissa: And Steven, your role there in Sydney.

[00:02:59] Stephen: Uh, my [00:03:00] role is I'm the greater Sydney leader, so I look after both our Parramatta and Sydney offices. And that's, that's, uh, I've got about 270 odd people that I proudly lead.

[00:03:09] Melissa: Fantastic. And it's quite a big business, and you spread in a lot of geographically diverse locations. There was a particular catalyst though, that kind of launched, you into this particular project in Sydney. Do you wanna just share? I think it was just like every other project there was a lease expire that kind of was kicking off and that kind of led you guys down a path of exploring what your options were.

[00:03:29] Stephen: Yeah, exactly. So it was actually probably the main trigger was we had this impending lease expiry date that we had had to contend with. So that was actually causing an initial decision of whether we stay or need to, need to move on. We'd been somewhat Uh, I suppose changed the way we'd work after, after Covid.

So we, we had embraced a flexible working scenario for our people, but that sort of felt like it wasn't quite working for us either. We hadn't actually nailed, that flexible working arrangements. And even if we stayed, there was still numerous pain [00:04:00] points in the office itself that we just couldn't solve by staying there.

So if we did stay, it was meaning a major disruption to our people. While we fitted it out to make it more I suppose more purposeful for us. But yeah, at the end of the day it was it was a decision either to, to stay or go triggered by the, the end of the lease.

[00:04:16] Melissa: Yeah. And so you went down the process of engaging with a tenant advisor to support you through those initial conversations and to go and look at the market. What was the trigger to start looking at it, this from a more holistic approach and engaging community from the workplace strategy perspective?

I.

[00:04:33] Stephen: Yeah, so I think it started off as when I realized that was this job was gonna land with me to, to actually move the next steps. I was actually then started thinking about what I really wanted to get out of it. And it was a, it was a post covid time too, where I felt we were losing our energy somewhat too.

And so I felt that this was a great opportunity not only to create a great new space, but actually just reinject some energy back, back into the business by creating a, a great, great. Space to work. At the time also, the market seemed to be [00:05:00] certainly a tenants market in terms of the space available.

So that's actually why we ran with the tenant rep to help us find a location. Because yeah, our first approach to the market, I think I got somewhere between 50 and 60 different tendencies that, that we could potentially look at. So I needed to come up with a way to try and make that into a more manageable, list.

[00:05:19] Melissa: Yeah.

[00:05:20] Stephen: it was then an opportunity to find the right space for us, I felt. And, and so the next step could actually hit us in two, you know, we could hit two things with that, which is yeah, finding, finding the right space in the right location to give us that, boost that I was looking for.

[00:05:34] Melissa: And so, yeah, obviously with 50 potential scenarios on the table, that's a lot of data for you guys to be sifting through. And at that point in time, I'm guessing too, you didn't have a really clear idea of what you needed or what your approach was gonna be in terms of this type of space that you were looking. 

[00:05:48] Stephen: that's exactly right. I sort of, uh, I suppose walked into this thinking I just needed X amount of desks and a couple of meeting rooms and off we go. But when I started having a few conversations internally, I started [00:06:00] realizing that was actually the way that we were working was a critical component that needed to be considered and certainly didn't have a good understanding of what we actually wanted.

I had my own ideas what we needed, but it wasn't necessarily what the people were looking for when, when they came into the office as

[00:06:15] Melissa: Yeah. And that's a pretty, you know, typical sort of approach is your lease is expiring. We need to find a new office, we need to put enough, you know, desks and offices in here, and a few more chairs and off we go. But. from those, just those comments you just mentioned, then you actually started to see this as a really, opportune time to start to look at this as a cultural transformation.

And that's not something that many clients come to on their own accord. It is a process that we tend to kind of expose them to and educate them through. But it sounds like you already had an inkling that this was gonna be a much bigger opportunity than just relocating an office and building something shiny and new, that it was going to be something that could really instill some.

Deeper ways of thinking and change around the way that people were working in the office.

[00:06:57] Stephen: Yeah.

that, that's, that's correct. I, I think I got a [00:07:00] little inkling of it when I it was a much, much smaller project, but moved our Parramatta office started to understand that the, the impact of That transformation. And I must admit on that one, in hindsight, if I'd, I've used a similar process there.

I, I, I'd be quite interested to see what the outcome we would've got. Not that I'm unhappy with it, but I think, you know, I could have probably taken it to the next, next level as well. So that gave me some insights that I needed some, some proper help into deciding what we do next. One was actually choosing the right space because it's not a thing of square meters, it's actually the layout of the floor, the location of the floor that also contributes.

to the outcome. And somewhat too, you've gotta deal with the space that's available. You in the market at the time. you can't go out. It's not, pick one of these off the shelf and I'll have one of those. You've actually gotta then have a look and, see how you can make that space work for you.

But to do that, make that decision, you actually need to know what you want. And that's, that's, that's where you came in with community, Mel, was that you helped us understand what we wanted and what we needed to take this step. 

[00:07:57] Melissa: Yeah, and it's interesting that you reflect on the fact that you'd already [00:08:00] done the Parramatta office because. You know, many clients haven't had that opportunity to sort of test and trial in a smaller location to then go, okay, well here's some lessons learned, and how are we going to kind of remedy those in a, a larger footprint?

They're coming in cold. This is their first opportunity at having a, go at this space. So you kind of had a bit of a head start there to realize where you, you could sort of leverage and, I suppose, elevate the outcome.

[00:08:25] Stephen: Yeah, absolutely. Because if you, you think it through, most people don't actually do it on a daily basis running these things. So, you know, it comes up once every five or six years. And generally you probably only get it. Once in your, your own career type thing as well. So it's really learning on the run around all that.

So yeah, I did have that luxury of actually moving a smaller office, so 18 months beforehand. but yeah, in hindsight, that was a great, precursor for, for this project.

[00:08:49] Melissa: Yeah, and you're right, most people don't get that opportunity to have a couple of goes at this. It is that once in a career kind of opportunity and you know, most leases are, you know, five to six and if not, you're resigning then up until [00:09:00] 10 years. So whatever you are doing now is. Taking your business 10 years into the future, which is pretty hard to fathom when you sit down and think about what's happened in the last 10 years.

'cause I know the space that you were coming from, you'd been there for 10 years and you'd actually taken on a fitted out premises with only a few minor alterations to that particular premises. So much of that fit out was up to 20 years old, that you were kind of still adapting to suit a very different way of working in the present.

[00:09:27] Stephen: Well, well, that, that's correct. That actually somewhat scared me a little bit too, and that's actually where I felt like I needed some science to back up what I was I was thinking because I did, did realize that when you're talking lease terms, we we're talking about space that we're gonna have for a minimum 10 years.

Therefore, I really gotta understand what. What our business could look like in 10 years time, not just now, but what it's gonna look like in, in 10 years time. And that really needs to go into the equation of, deciding what the right space is. And it was interesting when we looked at our old space, I.

That, you know, being engineers, they're pretty practical people. They just say, well, what's wrong with this? You [00:10:00] know, this, this is fine. That's exactly right. What, what, what more do you need? Um, Type conversations. it was great actually to hear the comments. When we first moved in, I thought, I thought this was a big sign of success for me.

I said I didn't, I didn't realize we needed to move until after we moved. So this whole process, I think, makes it we Got the right thing here for, for this, this particular move. 

[00:10:22] Melissa: And there was a lot of data that we collated and engagement that we did to get to those outcomes. And you know, I know that even staying was an option on the cards in the existing location, but. It was through the process of gathering all the data and then presenting it back, you know, to your partners and then up to the board that actually helped solidify some of those decisions.

Because if I give some stats here, in the old premises, you were operating at a 52% utilization rate, so. That meant that you had 86 desks on average every day that were being utilized of a total 167 desks that were available. [00:11:00] But what was actually a little bit scarier is the fact that you actually have 260 people, which meant that you only had a 32% attendance rate.

So that's a big gap. So only 32% of your team were actually coming in to the workplace on average each day.

[00:11:18] Stephen: Yes, that that's correct. And I think that the size of the space was actually quite perceptive too. We didn't understand. Those numbers until we started this process. But yeah, it, it, the office felt full, the office felt congested. Which was an interesting thing. So if you, if you took away that gut feel And looked at the numbers, it started really got us thinking of, well, what, what do we need to do here?

We've actually got something. We're spending all this money on floor space that people aren't using. This, this is starting to shape up. It's not The right thing. So yeah, I thought it was, it was great when we got community on board, then to really start to dig in to find out what was the pain point for our people?

What was stopping them from coming into the office and what could we unlock to not, so I didn't, I didn't wanna go down the path of setting [00:12:00] mandates of this is how you have to turn up, you know, you're on a Thursday and a Friday, and, and all those sorts of rules. I wanted people to choose that this was where their best, the best place was for them to come and do their best, their best work. So having community involved in finding out what our people's pain points was great insights as to actually deciding what, what to do next.

[00:12:18] Melissa: And it was pretty interesting some of those pain points too. We found that technology and meeting rooms were some of the big factors. So if someone saw that they had a full day of meetings in their calendar, they would actually opt to stay at home because there was nowhere for them to have those meetings in a physical.

Face-to-face location in the office. And then if they were in the office, we walked around one day and there were five people on the same meeting all scattered around the office, on their headphones, on teams, because there was no physical location for them to have these meetings. So this just gives you a really good insight into how the physical environment was really starting to shape some of the behavior that was happening within the actual workplace.

[00:12:56] Stephen: Yeah, that, that, that's exactly right. Is that and then that, in [00:13:00] that in turn, even the teams meetings was with, with engineering, there's, there's times where you'd need focus work. You actually need to concentrate on bodies of work uninterrupted. And the current layout just wasn't allowing that to happen.

You know, we were still quite cramped. There was, you know, your, colleagues sitting in the neighboring workstation would, could be on a teams call, which is quite loud and disruptive. You know, people walking past. So, so all that was actually then lit people thinking, well, I can actually work better and more efficiently from, from home than I can coming into the office.

And I think that's, that's why we're seeing those numbers at, at that particular time. 

[00:13:29] Melissa: Yeah, absolutely. And you and I had some conversations around this as well is because people started to think that they were having more efficient workflow by working at home, but the reality was that they individually may have been more efficient. I. But collectively as a team, the efficiency was starting to drop because that collaboration and that mentoring was starting to disappear because people weren't coming into the office and building that sort of face-to-face and that incidental collaboration and conversation.

[00:13:55] Stephen: Yeah.

It's interesting that even before Covid, we always talked about stuff about learning by [00:14:00] osmosis was a phrase we used in here. And that was actually just people, seeing doing our work around them. And the people that could work effectively from home were the ones that we needed other people to learn from.

 so we had the strange situation even where people. The experienced people were working from home and probably working quite effectively. Our younger people were wanting to learn and, and taking new things were coming to the office. So they were there by themselves or this senior cohort was off, working from home.

So there was a complete mismatch. And then I think it's self perpetuating. They then, well, what's the point of coming in here? 'cause there's nothing, it's no different to being at home. And I think that's, that's what started a bit of our, our spiral into, into those sort of, uh, attendance rates.

So, 

[00:14:37] Melissa: absolutely. And it all feeds into the culture of the organization then too. So it's really interesting to watch that knock on effect, that domino of what's happening when we've got sort of a real bottleneck that's happening within our physical environment and the impact that that's having on the rest of the business.

[00:14:52] Stephen: Yeah, so that it was all that and, and once then it helped me really understand what my vision was. Once I started to understand those, those pain points, what, [00:15:00] what the vision should be for, for the office move, and it fundamentally came back, is to creating a space where people would choose to come by their own volition.

and they feel that they can do their best work once they're here they don't need to make alternative arrangements.

[00:15:13] Melissa: Yeah, and there was some challenges along the way of you kind of executing on that vision. Some of it was around the number of desks that we were gonna need, so we did a number of scenario modeling based on the data that we had been collecting and looked at what the impact of that was going to be.

In terms of total square meterage requirements, and we went everything from everyone gets a desk and we had a pretty, you've got a pretty um, a strong growth horizon too of, you know, you're looking to achieve, uh, 350 people over the next five years. 350 desks is quite a hefty sum, which is obviously equates to a very large square meterage requirement, which is a lot of rent.

But we also looked at a number of other models. It started to really. Consider the Parramatta office, the role that it was going to play in the portfolio, what the [00:16:00] role of the CBD office actually needed to look like. And then we've played with some options to get to our final sort of recommendation.

But I know there's some hurdles that you kind of had to overcome along the way.

[00:16:10] Stephen: Yes. Yeah.

 again, I think the workforce we had, it was very much entrenched to you have your own desk in your own space, so that, that was the first one. And so that, uh, was interesting when we first laid out plans for that and said, well, okay, well we want be in five years time, we wanna be 350 people.

That means we have to get, get our lease space now for 350 people, but there's gonna be a fair whack of time where that's gonna be unoccupied because we're still waiting for those people to join, join the business as such, that didn't feel right. And that was actually one of the big advantages from this was the commercial reality of making a a flexible workspace.

Work is because there's, there's some great commercial benefits out of it. If you can get it, right. So not having to lease an overly large space has got some incredible, commercial advantages for us. And I think any consulting firm would find rent or, or, or leasing costs is probably a significant cost in running their, business.[00:17:00] 

So optimizing that was a good thing for us commercially. when we went back to the numbers and what looked at what people did at their workstations, there's a natural thing too with engineers. We need to be on site.

We need to be visiting our clients, so there's actually a natural workflow where even if you were there full time, you'd probably find that you're only there 60, 70% of the time in the office. Anyway, so this modeling allowed us to understand what something could look like and how that could, work?

And the irony is, is we actually moved into a large premises with a similar number of workstations. But we've now provided space for all the other things, the pain points that we weren't solving in the old office. And that's around meeting rooms and collaboration spaces. and pleased to say those things are actually used now quite extensively.

So I think, uh, our work to actually gain those insights early on have really helped to help with the end product. 

[00:17:49] Melissa: Yeah, absolutely. And I think, you know, you had collaboration spaces in the previous office, but they were kind of desks that were just kind of positioned in amongst other workstations. Your cafe was right in the [00:18:00] middle of your work area and so there was no boundary. And so events and things were really disruptive to other people.

1. There was nowhere to go and have a quiet conversation. You had sort of these two little nooks with no doors on them that, people could kind of hide away in, but they weren't functional for the type of work environment that you were trying to create. So there was a few of these sort of friction points that were really driving the way that people were actually working in the work environment.

But you also wanted to get really clear about what. You actually wanted the physical workplace to be, because as you just said, as engineers, you wanna do very focused, deep work. A lot of that was happening at home because that's where it made sense for it to happen, which changed your, the requirement and the need and the purpose of what the actual physical, workplace needed to support.

So do you wanna just talk through that a little bit?

[00:18:49] Stephen: Yeah, that, that's a, that's a good point. So, Consulting engineering's a bit bit weird or a bit?

strange, where you need, you need periods of time where you need the deep focus in isolation. But a lot of our work actually relies on [00:19:00] extensive collaboration, not only with clients and, and other people working on the project, but also amongst ourselves.

'cause quite often we've got large teams that are, that are delivering these engineering projects. So we need an opportunity for these teams internally to come. Together and share ideas and actually um, nut out solutions for, way forward. And we found that was not happening.

In our old office because it was very clunky, like people were trying to have online meetings. That was, it just didn't seem to, flow. And then I, sometimes the bright ideas just happen just walking past in a casual chat. Not necessarily in a formalized brainstorming session So creating a space where people would suddenly think of an idea and then go off to a quiet space where they could actually advance that idea with the right tech and the right support infrastructure. I think has really started bring back those things that made us great.

 before Covid.  

[00:19:47] Melissa: Which then shifted the need for what kind of spaces actually were in the office and you said, you know, you basically moved into an office with the same amount of desks for a much larger growth horizon. But we have all of these [00:20:00] ancillary spaces, so you've got. Multiple different collaboration spaces that are both suitable for clients, but also just for general team interaction.

They're sort of positioned around the general entry and reception space, but then also they're scattered through the back office area. So you've now got all of these different places for your teams to come together, which in reality is what your workplace is for. It's for where people can come together, they can collaborate, they connect, they can brainstorm, but then.

There was a lot of pushback around that in terms of the number of off, uh, workstations that were being provided in the workplace as well. And I know there was a few conversations at times where we were looking to take out collaboration spaces to put more desks in with this, this constant tension about what do we do, do we, don't we?

And that was being driven by a number of different factors.

[00:20:46] Stephen: that's right. And look, fundamentally it was still I suppose it's change, people still a bit bit apprehensive about the change. And it, and again for engineers, like it was interesting and excuse transformation too from, I suppose when I started my career, a lot of it was paper-based [00:21:00] reference books and you had your piles and materials and files all sitting around you so you could work effectively.

Whereas now that's all transport, that's actually all on online now. So everything, you don't need to have those hard. Paper copy things or, or round you in a, in a permanent location. But that hangover was still there for our people. They still felt that that was important to have.

And then even when you, you came along and started questioning, well, what do you use that, that old lever arch folder for, I don't know, looked in there for three years. Okay. Um, Do you really need this space then? So it was, it was interesting just actually challenging those. boundaries. But then there's the um, I mean, we've got, we've got people who love having all the little knickknacks and things around their, their workstation as well.

So there, there was people that was concerned, just the fact that, you know, they had photos of family and, and mementos or trips and all these sorts of things hanging around as well their workstations And felt it was important. So we had to work through what, what good could look like without the need to actually create a fixed workstation for yourself.

[00:21:53] Melissa: And there was even some questioning that came from at the board level as well around have we actually got enough desks in here?

[00:21:59] Stephen: That's [00:22:00] correct. Yeah. again, I suppose that would be, uh, indicative of the age of the board, but yeah, they, they very much set to that mindset. And were, struggling to see why we should shift. But the, the interesting thing was, is that, again, I thought it was, it was probably a safe decision around it.

Like it was, okay, it works before, do, do this for our people moving premises is a big disruption in itself. We don't want to do all this stuff and then suddenly up upset. Our teams, we lose our efficiency and our productivity. So I think that's what was driving that more. So there was, there was certainly a cautiousness and the, the easy solution was to say, well, okay, one desk for everyone and we'll just shift into a new, premises.

But back to the modeling, the modeling actually showed the commercial advantages, if we get this right actually how it can actually, set up our, our financial future by actually having, you know, picking the right size space and, using it in a much, much better way. 

[00:22:49] Melissa: And so that kind of then gave you a lot of the data to go back to the market and determine what was gonna be the best scenario and solution for you. And through that process, we looked at five properties and we [00:23:00] looked at the pros and cons and did some weighted decision matrix around that. And that's how you ended up deciding to move to 400 George Street and.

I mean, there were some really interesting commercials that sat around that, that supported that decision. But you also had the opportunity to take on what was a pretty solid existing floor plate, but change a lot of the loose environment that was around a very well designed and structured core. 

[00:23:26] Stephen: that's right. It actually um, was very handy having that information. 'cause then you could start to see how the things you wanted would fit into that, space. I think you'd be looking at it from a very different lens if you did. Have these things in place. and that was possibly where I was gonna end up if I hadn't actually gone on this, this particular journey, it was actually gonna be probably would've been some more very basic metrics would've in selecting, in selecting the space, but having this vision of having, you know, creating a great, space to work.

Firstly that even made us think about location straight up, you know, like it was So I didn't want to shift too far from our old premises 'cause people still had [00:24:00] relationships with the coffee guy down the road. I didn't wanna change all those sorts of dynamics. So being in, in a similar location was important.

then with the outcome or the vision I had for the office, natural light was important. We needed to have that access to natural, natural light. I didn't wanna move something that actually had less light than our. Original place. I wanted to step that up I reckon the great, thing for us was it allowed us to latch on an opportunity where we stumbled across a floor plate that actually had an existing fit out that we could reuse a substantial amount of.

Now, I don't, if we didn't have these understandings, what we wanted, I don't think we would've latched onto the opportunity so much. And even so in a normal sense, when we first looked at the place. the landlord was actually looking at ripping out, so they're gonna give us a cold shell.

So all that infrastructure that was sitting in place would've actually been removed and created more waste. So it's a great story that we could actually grab. ' cause we knew what we wanted. We could actually repurpose a lot of that existing hard fit out which had some great, cost benefits for us.

And the other part too is that it actually stayed true to our [00:25:00] own environmental, commitments. So it allowed us to actually repurpose without creating more waste and more embodied carbon. 

[00:25:05] Melissa: Yeah, and it was a great, I mean, and you had other options that were also fitted out options, but the structure and the layout of those just didn't suit the requirements of your business. And so again, having that data, you were able to kind of. View that and see what that longer term impact would've been.

Even though the commercials and that looked good and the fit out looked good, the actual longer term, you know, over the lease would've had, a much bigger impact on the operation of the business.

[00:25:31] Stephen: that's exactly right. think you would've spent a lot of money retrofitting anyway once you moved in and trying to make the space work so. I don't think you could go and just move straight in and it'd be a, a smooth transition. I think we got the balance right here we took an existing, fit out, made that work.

'cause we knew what we wanted and then built all the new parts that were important to us and we needed, to have. I think we had a great, balance of all those, all those factors. 

[00:25:53] Melissa: Yeah. Now building, it's one thing, but actually bringing everybody on the journey with you is a completely different scenario. [00:26:00] And again, you had a very strong vision about what you wanted to achieve. Through this whole process and the fact that it wasn't purely just about another construction project and we're gonna build a new office, you were trying to use this as a real catalyst to transform the ways of working and the culture within the organization.

You'd been through a restructure just prior to us starting working with you. So there was some, a lot of change that was happening in the business. So this was really gonna be an opportunity for you to kind of bed down a new way of the way that Northrop and Sydney was gonna lead going forward.

[00:26:31] Stephen: Yeah, that that's right. We're coming with an interesting time with our people because. They'd already been through a lot of change. So a lot of the structures they were used to had changed somewhat. And so this was another one, and again, that was coming from a board too, was that they were nervous, I should say, about another change which could adversely impact our people.

So it was important to take our people on that journey of how we were going to, why we were doing this change and what was the catalyst for these things. And also embrace or let them embrace our vision for the office as well. 

[00:26:58] Melissa: And we brought them in that [00:27:00] entire process. So they had a lot of input into, what was the new workplace we're gonna provide for them. there was a lot of say that they had, which meant that they were not just having this thing imposed on them, they were actually part of the solution and the creation of that.

And I think that has paid dividends for you as well through this process.

[00:27:19] Stephen: I, I think so. And it's, it's, one of the, the benefits in hindsight with this was I. Having, having community on board and, and quite visible in the change process. So what it said to our people was that we're serious about doing this, right? We're serious about bringing you along for the journey.

And then it, that was validated by the things that they asked for actually ended up. Being presented in the new, office, but they could see that was before it was coming. So a great, it created a great baseline for them to embrace the change. they could see that dealing with the pain points.

This is how we're gonna deal with the pain points. They saw that we've done, you know, we, we've spent a lot of time listening and researching what. What is needed. And then it was helping them on and showing them how this thing was evolving to actually [00:28:00] capture those thing in, in the final outcome.

So I think it was very important to take the. Our people on, on that journey, particularly where they were a little bit overwhelmed by the change that was going on and give them that comfort that, Yeah, we've got this, we're thinking about this and we're trying to make this transition as seamless as possible.

[00:28:20] Melissa: Yeah, and you invested quite heavily in that process as well, so bringing community in. We supported you through that entire change in communications process of ensuring that everyone knew exactly what was going on, that they had the information that they needed, that they had their questions answered, and that we were giving the skills that were needed.

To those that were then leading on that frontline. Because that's the other challenge is you are asking leaders to take on another skill set. And as engineers, this isn't generally something that you're taught at engineering school. You've got, these are new skill sets that we had to. Impart onto those leaders in order to be able to lead their teams effectively [00:29:00] through this, because we're changing mindsets, we're changing behavior, we're changing ways of working.

You know, all of a sudden I come into a desk to work every day and I normally have my desk and all my things on it, and now you're asking me to go to this locker and grab my stuff and find a desk, and like that all feels extremely overwhelming for somebody who. Is not familiar with it, and it's quite a leap of a change.

And some of the leaders themselves were grappling with these conversations, let alone having to then lead their teams through these conversations.

[00:29:26] Stephen: I think that was the, the key part of the success was bringing all of our levels of management through on the journey. So there was conversation, it was open and, and, and good conversations.

about what the changes were going to be. And community also helped us explain, we could actually describe from what a typical workday looked like here before they moved in.

And I think giving that confidence and seeing that, you know, it started to answer all those little questions that. the concern and it, and I think in, at times a lots of change. Things that you could sometimes just blow off as minor. And, and that can actually be quite a, quite a catalyst for for, for frustration and concern.

So [00:30:00] going through the steps in, in quite some detail of what, of how the new place would. Would look and work and how you would operate in that, and the things you'd have to do, and spending some time and getting them used to that too. Not just turning up and saying, here you go. Good luck. it was actually, they, they had a good understanding of how they're going, Going to work before they arrived. in the space. the excitement was quite interesting actually. We had a period where we were still trying to get the office ready and we actually moved outta the old space and everyone was working from home, but we had all these people turning up on mass to, to just get going in the, in the, in the new space.

Uh, 'cause they felt, they knew all about it and very much so we had building, got your lease doesn't start, guys But it was just the, the excitement of trying, you know, of, of getting this thing. This thing under underway. it certainly had helped with having all our people, having a consistent, having the information to talk to their people about the change.

That was the important, the important catalyst for this was that each of the management. Uh, lines had the right amount of information so they could have proper conversations with with their teams and their [00:31:00] people. And therefore that is what I think great. Created that underlying confidence that a good thing. 

[00:31:05] Melissa: Yeah, and how great is it? They all had that familiarity with the building before it had even opened, because we must have done all of the jobs properly then to make sure that they had that level of confidence to just go, okay, we, we are good to go. Let's go. 

 

[00:31:16] Melissa: That's And we took a, an interesting approach with you as well. So we had a couple of really key things that we did through that change process. So the first one was we developed our creative concept and that was our 400 Georgias. So we developed a mascot to help with the communication program because a lot of the time, You see communications come out from the business and you kind of go, oh yeah, just another email, or it's just another message. And you know, people don't tend to pay attention to it, but by creating this identity around the entire. Project itself. Every time you saw, and you know, we had little George and Georgina, and every time you saw them pop up, you knew that there was gonna be some information about the workplace.

So it piqued people's interest, it got them involved, and you had a fantastic sort of campaign that we ran across the [00:32:00] entire office from, you know, TV signage to emails and teams messages and things to be able to communicate these different layers. How did you find the, the rollout of George and Georgina?

[00:32:12] Stephen: it was an amazing way to cut through actually, because. Thinking back about how much our people actually get bombarded with information. You know, that could be from project work, that could be from me telling 'em to do stuff. there's just all sorts of avenues where this information arrives.

So it's very hard for themselves to actually filter and find out what's relevant for them. So actually having something that identifies the piece of information coming to them. Is associated with a particular aspect of the business, that that was actually a great, great way to cut through all the other noise that was going on so we could get actually the proper messages to our people when we needed, to get them there.

And e even the things which is we've always notoriously struggled with is that the basic stuff, okay, this team, you are turning up the office on Tuesday. if we did that in a normal sense, we'd have someone Wednesday, some on Monday. 

[00:32:57] Melissa: I.[00:33:00] 

[00:33:00] Stephen: Some something I.

never got told, you know, and all this, 

those sorts of things just didn't seem to happen. When we created a, a, a specific way to communicate with, with people and also across multiple platforms, we put those, those images on all the different platforms that you could actually receive information.

So a lot of it was the same information, but it might've been on our intranet side, it might've been on the screens inside the office, it might've been on some email. And then, then their own line managers are actually sharing documentation with these images. On it and, and talking in the same, language.

So I think all that was necessary to get the messaging that we needed, to get through. I think if we just used our traditional, sending an email out to everyone and hoping they would read it 

[00:33:38] Melissa: And I think the other thing that was really great, 'cause we took a collaborative approach in this and we co-created a lot of this with your internal team. So after we kind of developed the key messages and the communication plan and created our Georgias, we then handed everything back to your team for them to kind of run with it.

After we'd given them some direction, provided some coaching around how to do it, I think [00:34:00] they really embraced it and. I saw the development that you guys then took, the ownership of it and the rollout of it across the business, I think was truly impressive. And, you know, the assets that you guys then created to continue that communication flow through the business, yeah, I just thought it was absolutely brilliant.

[00:34:16] Stephen: Yeah.

it was, it was interesting, uh, interesting learning from that was it actually gave other teams that would not necessarily be directly involved in these sorts of things. Some, some involvement. It was an exciting, it's lot moving house. It's great to, to turn to a move, a move place. And it gave the opportunity for our marketing team to be directly involved and pivotable as to, the messaging that we're trying to get out. And so they, they, yeah, they, they really just latched onto this opportunity and, and, and did a great job in guiding, guiding our people through the messaging of, of what, what was coming up. 

[00:34:46] Melissa: Yeah, absolutely. They did a brilliant job. And the other thing that we did through that process is we activated two levels of leadership for you as well. So you had your, typical frontline managers who needed to understand well, what was the impact of change gonna be like, what [00:35:00] is it impact on me?

How is it gonna impact on my team? Actually understanding and acknowledging. What that does to us physiologically, emotionally, and then how that's gonna show up in our day-to-day work. But also then activating your next layer, you know, your, your future leaders. That was the other bit that I found extremely exciting because we got to identify your next cohort, your next generation of leaders, and really invite them to step up in this process by giving them, you know, first access to information.

Giving them direction on how to go out and communicate with the business. Inviting them to be our eyes and ears on the ground so that they were then telling us, you know, what are the whispers? Where are we not hitting the mark with the comms? What pe, what people are still worried about? Where do they need more information?

And being able to feed that back into the business. I think they were, they were two things that I found really worked well from that communications perspective and the upskilling of your existing leadership team as well.

[00:35:54] Stephen: Yeah. So yeah, so certainly the emerging leaders are our associate group as we call 'em can actually, they, they, they don't [00:36:00] necessarily have direct management roles, but they've very much got a leadership role within our business. So they're recognized as an associate for, for excellence in dealing with their clients, excellence in technical knowledge um, and being, you know, important part of.

Of our business, but sometimes they don't get the broader exposure of how, what they can do in terms of our leadership. So this was a great vehicle for them to actually speak to people that they wouldn't normally speak to in our office and be seen as someone guiding and driving this change and being a safe pair of hands that would help them through this change.

So that, and much, I suppose my enjoyment was the fact as they embraced, this role too and actually love being, love being part, of the process. 

[00:36:36] Melissa: Yeah, it gave them a framework to actually go out there and have those conversations. And I think that's a really important factor as well, because one of the things that we identified through those earlier engagements, right back at the beginning was that there were some people within the business who weren't.

Coming into the office on a regular basis and that there was some stickiness from some of the leaders as to how to address some of those [00:37:00] conversations. And I think that through this process, their confidence in having those more challenging and difficult conversations elevated, but also I think that shifted in terms of how people are actually utilizing and engaging with the workplace.

What's your thoughts on that?

[00:37:12] Stephen: Yeah.

I, I think that became obvious 'cause. If, thinking back to our normal approaches, we, we'd expect these people to have particularly our line managers, to have these conversations with the people, but then quickly realized that what we'd been doing is actually they had to actually make up the narrative themselves a lot of the time.

So the message was changing depending on which manager was delivering that message. So I think the framework we provided was we provided the background, the framework, and the structure of how to deliver this message, which in turn then gave them confidence to have These decisions and, and these people are pretty busy as well, just delivering our normal project work as well.

So it's, it was, it gave them relief that they didn't have to go and invent the comms. We would give them that framework so they could then personalize it, put it into their own style, and deliver the message. We then help them build better, 

[00:37:56] Melissa: Yeah.

[00:37:57] Stephen: with their own teams. 

[00:37:58] Melissa: And I think the other thing is the fact [00:38:00] that it's happening across the entire business. Like they're not singling out their team. It's a uniform approach. Everybody's doing this. And that's, you know, to that conversation you had earlier about, you know, people coming in on the wrong days. That again, was something that we provided the.

The leaders with was how to actually go back and then structure these, what we call team agreements within their teams, around what was okay. You know, basically the rules of the game. When are we gonna come in? When is it okay to be on a teams call? When are we actually need to be face to face? What's our working routine and rhythm look like and how are we going to succeed and win as a team?

And by giving them that framework, it gave them a point to then sit down and have those conversations with their team and create, I suppose, the rules of engagement.

[00:38:42] Stephen: Yeah. Yeah.

 They're having more meaningful conversations now with their teams as a result of this and this gave 'em the license to have, it's, it's okay to talk about this stuff. it's also okay for your people to push back and have concerns about this if they're not on board, and gave 'em a way of managing That pushback. And I think that's, that's actually gone [00:39:00] across into more other, more difficult conversations as well that needs to be had. But also on the flip side, it was also gave the vehicle to actually iron out a few of the bugs that we hadn't quite thought about. So it actually allowed that information to flow back through to us.

And I think that's why we had the very smooth transition in the end. 'cause someone was grabbing the information, was looking at it, applying it to how it might. affect them and then raising important, relevant questions about those things, which actually then when you drilled into it, so that's not just that person.

That could be everyone is actually. And so it helped us solve a lot of those things before we moved in, just by that, having those good conversations around, around this. And again, I pinned that back to the fact that we gave our, our leaders and managers a framework to talk to our people about this, 

[00:39:43] Melissa: Yeah. One of the things I'd be curious to know, and we've had this conversation before, is as a group of engineers, there's a, technically a larger number of neurodiverse brains within your business. How did that information or experience surprise you and what has [00:40:00] actually, how's that unfolded as we've kind of, uh, started to move into the space now?

[00:40:04] Stephen: Yeah. For, well, for me personally, it was a a significant learning curve. I, I didn't appreciate the stress that this could actually impact on some people. I was, I suppose the impact on people. Just by having a move like this, actually going from a situation where you like coming in and sitting in that spot next to the window, next to the people around you.

And yeah, I was underestimating the importance of that. being engineering consultancy, I do think that we may have a higher proportion of people in neurodiverse people within the business, which is great. 'cause actually we need, they do a lot of great and amazing work. that make our business a success.

But I think with the, what the structure we'd done, it allowed us to pivot pretty quickly and, and deal with those concerns very quickly.

So within the first week there was a number of people that had said, look, this is not working for me. I'm, I'm struggling with it. But they felt like they could actually come to us and say, look. We, we've got a problem here. We need to sort this out. And our teams were, you know, agile enough to actually deal with it and find solutions to all these, [00:41:00] these sorts of things.

So, you know, there, there's one person there that just really had to sit at the same desk and we just came to agreement with it and said, that's great. No, that's, that's fine. You can book that desk. we'll book that desk forever and today. But you'll just have to agree to leave it in a state that when someone, when you are not here, you are seeing clients or doing, or, or out on site that that desk can be used by someone else. And 

[00:41:21] Melissa: Yeah. And isn't it great that you had been able to develop the psychological safety within the organization for those conversations to happen and that the teams then felt empowered enough to make those decisions on their own just to make it happen? Happen. I think that's incredible. I mean, I think that in itself is a testament to the leadership that you've led through this entire process and the how that has then trickled down and impacted on the rest of the business.

[00:41:46] Stephen: Yeah.

Well, well thank, thank you for

those kind words. But yeah, I mean that, that's fundamentally our culture is that we we're trying to provide anyone who works in this business, um. opportunity and things like, you know, if you're struggling with a, with a workspace, well we, we, we, we need to unlock that.

So you can, do your best for 

[00:42:00] us. 

[00:42:00] Melissa: Yeah. Fantastic. Now you've been in the space for just over six months now. What are some of the lessons that you've learned? Like what are the things that you think have worked really well? Is there anything that you would change? what's your reflections?

[00:42:12] Stephen: well, hindsight is I could have been bolder in, in pushing through my vision and actually shortened the timeframe this took us because it's, it's not as, it's not as scary as it first, appeared. One thing I.

love is we created this um, our cafe or breakout space and, every lunchtime that's now full, so you'll find there's a period between about midday and one 30 where it's actually, it's buzzing full of people just coming together.

No one eats lunch at their desks. They will come in and and, uh, and even so much two people are actually going away buying their lunch outside the building, bringing their lunch back in, and then sitting down with their colleagues in our beautiful breakout space To have their lunch. So to me that's actually a, that's a Great.

 sign of success of the move.

The other one is actually our attendance. that number's shot up.

[00:42:57] Melissa: Great.

[00:42:57] Stephen: So it's, it's, it's improving. it's hovering [00:43:00] around 55, 60%, which is significant improvement from that 30 36. You mentioned mentioned earlier the office feels, feels full still. Friday, Friday's a challenge, but the office now feels full on any day you come in here and absolutely.

We've got a few of the the long-term work from home crowd now actually more present. More present in the office. And that's not by any other reason, but providing a new space in their colleagues, telling 'em how great it is 

[00:43:25] Melissa: Yeah. Because you guys have not influenced any kind of mandate or expectations around the number of days that people are coming in. It's purely self-directed and team led.

[00:43:35] Stephen: Yes, that, that, that's right. So it's certainly what's works for the, the team is what is the right decision there. we do talk about if you spend time away from the office, that you'd probably have to work harder to be visible and actually you know, get, get. The cream jobs or the great jobs and those sorts of things, that could be harder for you to actually land in your, in your lap.

But at the end of it all, yeah. Pe people are choosing themselves that it's actually, they, they're seeing for themselves the benefits of actually [00:44:00] catching up with their colleagues for either learning, knowing what's going on in the business, or just actually enjoying work by actually doing similar things with a, with a great group of group of people. 

[00:44:09] Melissa: Yeah, great. And you know, we are two years down the track from when we first kicked off this project, like. 

[00:44:15] Stephen: Wow. 

[00:44:16] Melissa: I know. Amazing, isn't it? It, it happened so quickly, but it seems like so far ago, so much has happened. But you know, if you think back to where you were two years ago and where you are now, how do you feel like the business has changed and what role do you think that your work environment is now playing in that?

[00:44:34] Stephen: Yeah. So I certainly think people have realized the importance of coming together and that learning opportunity, that's been led by osmosis. 'cause it's, it's now happening. In terms of leading the change, I, I'm still a great advocate of actually providing a A great place to work, and that's where they feel like it meets their needs to do the things we want them to do for this, this business. And I think that's, that's key. You know, jamming people into a, some sort of back office with no sunlight and then expecting [00:45:00] lots of productivity. I, you kidding yourself is, is my view.

And I think from the reaction to this office and, and from probably some of the upticks that we've had now in our own business. pin that?

to actually creating this space for our people to, to do their work in. 

[00:45:13] Melissa: Amazing now. If someone else was gonna be embarking on this process, because no doubt somebody who's listening here today is gonna be thinking about this, a lease coming up. They've got an opportunity presented in front of them. Knowing what you know now and all of the challenges and obstacles that you have overcome.

What would your piece of advice be to them in terms of how they go about this process? And one of the things that I think I've witnessed you do really well throughout this process is stay true to the vision. You've played the long game. There's been a lot of short-term pain. There's been a lot of challenges and roadblocks and hurdles that you've had to jump through, but I feel like that has been significantly paid off for you for now, but also into the future.

So I'm just curious to know. What your thoughts are on that, and you know, what would your [00:46:00] advice to someone else be?

[00:46:01] Stephen: For me, I think it is important to have a vision. You, you've gotta try and understand what you are trying to, you know, achieve by, by doing all this. And if it's something if it's around just, you know, fi filling an office space where this probably is in the chat for you.

but for me, I think it's about um, the key ones. Give yourself time as well. Like we mentioned before, it's two years to get. We've been working together for two years on this project right now, and I think that every step of the way, like at times it felt rushed and it felt those deadlines, but you, you can easily underestimate the amount of time, so the amount of time to find the right space and the amount of time to plan for the moving into that space.

So I, I'm suggesting you, you need to give yourself time and say you might be looking at your lease expiry date. I think you've gotta pick a time two years before that and start to. To develop what your vision would be. And then number two is, is I think you have to stay true to the vision. There'll be all sorts of bounces and things come with you, but I think you'll end up with something that's not quite.

As good as what you'd, you'd hoped it to be?

So the idea is actually being very clear of what you want out of this, staying true to that, so that messaging stays consistent through [00:47:00] the, the, the whole project. And that helps with all the difficult conversations, all the naysayers and, and all the other challenges that that might pop up if you keep relating it back to how that helps with the vision, it gives you direction very, very easily. 

[00:47:11] Melissa: Yeah. Incredible. And yeah, as I said, I've watched you right from the beginning be very clear about. Where you thought the opportunity for this project was going, and then have kind of held that line true through all the difficult conversations that you've had and promoting this amongst the team and internally, and then putting the systems and structures in place to ensure that you are getting the best outcome possible and really maximizing this opportunity.

Because as we've said, it only comes around once every 10 years you're spending. A significant amount of money investing in the creation of these workplaces, and it doesn't take that much more effort to make it work really well and kind of catapult your business forward as opposed to kind of just putting, you know, desks in a on a floor.

[00:47:56] Stephen: Yeah. Yeah. I, I think so. I think You can easily underestimate the beneficial [00:48:00] impacts of such, such a move when you just bring it down to hard commercial type. Type numbers. But I think to me that's an opportunity lost. I reckon you, you don't need to spend huge amounts of money in making this transformation.

So, and we certainly didn't. but the more time you give yourself, the more planning and the clearer you are on your vision that allows you to actually, I. I suppose create those great financial outcomes. Of course, if you launch in it, I think if you launch into it towards and try and do it extremely quickly, I think that was, that can actually put a lot of cost pressures onto, onto, onto the move itself.

And then I, I, the other one I liked was bringing, I. It was actually the, the, the enjoyment I think our people got from being involved with it. So spreading the load with all sorts of people within the business and finding, finding ways for them to contribute to the move. I, it's, uh, create ownership of it.

So let that bit that bit happen because of me, or and so I think. That was good. And it actually then helped bring the whole, the whole business along, along, together as opposed to this being Steven's project and we're just moving down the road. And uh, yeah, he got that wrong and [00:49:00] all this sort of stuff.

And I must say, there's one thing I've learned through this. I didn't realize how many fit out experts we had in my 

business. 

[00:49:10] Melissa: You are an engineering business. There's bound to be a couple. Oh, well look, Steven, thank you so much. Like firstly, thank you so much for trusting me and the team at community for supporting you on this epic journey that you've gone through and to getting where you're at. But secondly, thank you so much for joining me today and sharing The process, the, the highs, the lows that you've gone through to get to here. I'm personally very grateful because I think it's turned out to be a fantastic project. It's been an absolute joy working alongside you through this, and just watching how you have led the business and the outcomes that you've achieved as a result has been an absolute pleasure.

So thank you.

[00:49:48] Stephen: Right now. Well, thank, thanks Mel. And I'd actually like to Thank you. and your team at Community too. 'cause without your guidance and assistance I don't think we would've created the outcome that we got here either. So it's been a pleasure sharing, sharing our, my journey with you. And, [00:50:00] hopefully um, this can help you um, help others.

[00:50:02] Melissa: Thank you. No, and look, it has been absolutely wonderful, so thank you very much. Appreciate it. 

[00:50:07] Stephen: Thanks, Mel. 

[00:50:08] Melissa: Thank you so much for joining us today. I am incredibly proud of this project and so honored that we have had the opportunity to work with such lovely clients. Steven's leadership throughout the entire project has been admirable to watch, and it shows in the culture that he has established in the Sydney team.

As I said at the outset, we weren't here to give you a detailed chronological account of how we delivered the project, but if you are interested in learning more, you can head over to the community website or you'll find a detailed case study and lots of pictures of the finished office. There's a link below in the show notes and if you are seeing your lease expiry looming and not sure where to start, get in touch.

Let's chat and see how the team at community and I can support you on your journey. [00:51:00]