TRANSCRIPT - 151 - Creating a Neurodiverse Workplace with Mariane Power

Mariane: [00:00:00] in my work, , of course it's got that neuro inclusive, neuro affirming lens, but I really lean on universal design principles that are looking at how can we take the fear out of that individualized, personalized support that can come with thinking, oh, this is too much.

It's gonna take up too many resources, and actually just learn some of those communication phrases, those coaching prompts and reflective questions that help us to understand well. What are the brains in our business? You know, who are the people that are coming to work? One of the conversations that I'm having inside workplaces is around how do we support those who have neurodiverse needs within our organizations? Now, this is a conversation that I have been exploring with the lovely Marianne Power for a couple of years now, and so I decided to invite her along to join me on the podcast to have a chat about this in greater detail.[00:01:00]

So some of the conversation that we are gonna explore is what actually is neurodiversity and a neurodivergent person, and then we are starting to dive into what this means in terms of our workplace design, because this is where I'm seeing a lot of organizations stumble around what is a requirement to support someone with a brain-based difference and identifying as neurodivergent.

So Marianne Power is a clinical psychologist and inclusive workplace and neurodiversity specialist. She's dedicated to advancing systemic transformation that improves the personal and professional lives of neurodivergent individuals. She's blending deep clinical expertise with lived experience as a neurodivergent professional herself.

She's a sought after speaker, executive coach, and consultant, helping organizations integrate inclusive work-life design with cutting edge neuroscience, positive psychology and performance strategies. So as you can see, she is the perfect person for us to be having this conversation with as a neurodivergent [00:02:00] professional herself, and specializing in supporting coaching and leadership in neurodivergent individuals within our organizations.

So the conversation that we're gonna explore today is how as organizations we can be creating workplace environments that are supportive of our employees who are identifying as having brain-based differences. Now, as Marianne points out in this episode, that's about 20% of your organization that are identifying as neurodivergent.

So that's a large proportion of our organizations that are potentially not being catered for. Or considered in the design of our workplaces. So we start to look at, well, what are the things that we should be considering? How are we starting to have these conversations? What does that look like? And what can we do to involve these people in the design of our workplaces as we progress forward?

Now, this is a said, a conversation that I'm seeing happening more and more around the boardroom table. But without a lot of understanding about what are the actions that they need to take to move the needle [00:03:00] forward. So that's what we're gonna explore in today's conversation because Marianne is just a beautiful person with such an empathetic heart and.

I really like her approach because it's far more evidence-based. She's really looking at it beyond the requirement of what is needed from a compliance perspective, particularly around, so social safety legislation. It's about empowering individuals. It's about empowering companies to create really. Neuro inclusive environments and cultures and start to look at how by doing this, we are creating and unlocking the full potential of our diverse teams, which as Marianne again points out in this Echo episode, is not just good for individuals, it's also really smart for business.

She's been recognized as a world class education top innovator by Uplink and Deloitte Global. She's the author of the Impact Mindset Theory and Creator of the Impact Framework. Marianne also hosts her own podcast Classroom 5.0.

Which is a podcast exploring the future of work, learning and leadership so that [00:04:00] she can continue to shape conversations on how diverse teams fuel sustainable innovation and create meaningful impact. As I said, this is a conversation that I've been wanting to have for a while. It's a great opportunity for us to really understand what are those little differences that we need to be considering for our people and how we can start to create an environment that is supportive and inclusive for everyone.

So without any further ado, let me introduce you to Marianne Power. 

Melissa: Maryanne, thank you so much for joining us on the Work Life by Design Podcast.

Mariane: Thanks for having me, Mel. It's been a conversation we've talked about off camera for a very long time, so it's brilliant to be joining you today. Thanks for the opportunity.

Melissa: I wanna start by really getting some shared language, , around the conversation that we're about to have today. And if you could give us a definition of what does neurodiversity actually mean?

Mariane: Nice starting point. You're right. There can be a bit of confusion and language does really matter. [00:05:00] You'll probably notice if you start to dive into some of the posts on LinkedIn, there can. Be a little bit of contention, but this is my best take on what's available in the literature in the community so far.

So neurodiversity, broadly speaking, refers to the idea that there is natural diversity in brains and that that's a biological fact. So we're all born with very diverse, different. Brains, and that's really referring to that collective term. So if you think almost like biodiversity refers to the diversity , in our environment and, in the environment around us, neurodiversity is talking about that same difference collectively speaking.

So where people I think get a little bit confused is then when we're talking about an individual. Who is neurodivergent? So a neurodivergent person is somebody with a brain-based difference, like a DHD, like autism. And there's a bunch of different profiles I'm sure we'll tap into today. But neurodiversity is actually speaking to that biological fact that amongst the human population, we have a diversity of brains.

Melissa: Which makes sense. Like we are not

all

Mariane: [00:06:00] does, when you put it that way. Yeah.

Melissa: It makes a lot of sense. Like no

two people are the same. We all are

gonna learn differently. Like whether we learn from reading or listening or um, you know, doing, we're all gonna have a different approach to these things. So this makes complete sense to me.

Mariane: Yeah, and probably the thing to add to that is that then there's the addition of when we talk about the neurodiversity. Paradigm or the neurodiversity movement. And so that term really came about in the late 1990s, speaking to the idea that, yes, as you said, there are these brain-based differences, but rather than looking at brain-based differences as a, a pathology or, or medicalizing, a lot of these differences, it was really trying to take away from the stigma and to recognize the diversity.

And so how can we also step into strengths? So the neurodiversity movement. There's a lot of advocacy for understanding, for awareness for shared collective, um, that with those brain-based differences, to your point, uh, there are people who benefit from, from adjustments and from different ways of moving in the world.

'cause our world's really been set up more so [00:07:00] for the neuron normative population or those neurotypical brain profiles.

Melissa: Mm. And so this has obviously become quite a hot topic over the last couple of years. What's shifted? Why is it now something that we are having a lot more conversations about? A lot more awareness about what's happened now versus what was happening previously. This started in the 1990s. It feels to me that this is a conversation that's only sort of been in mainstream population for probably maybe the last 2, 3, 5 years.

Mariane: Yeah, it's really interesting one, if you're watching this on YouTube, 'cause I know that, that you share the, the video you might have seen my little face contort with the hot topic. I have a visceral reaction to that. Somebody with a brain-based difference myself to be thought of as a hot topic. I, I'm not sure how I feel.

Um, but you're right, it has the neurodiversity, um, movement, if you like, has definitely gained momentum in the last couple of years, and I think we saw that a lot off the back of Covid. I don't want that to take away though, from the incredible work that has been done, , by the [00:08:00] heroes in this field. We've talked about the 1990s and many people, listeners might be familiar with having heard of the work of sociologists, Australian sociologists, Judy Singer.

Um, but there's multiple people who have contributed to our understanding of neurodivergent profiles and, and neurodiversity. And interestingly, back in 2000, there was another peak of, of interest in, in neurodiversity. It was coming specifically out of, , Silicon Valley and a recognition that a lot of the.

Professionals in Silicon Valley who were doing incredible high tech things, uh, were presenting with, with children who are being diagnosed with autism. And so there was sort of this question going on, you know, like, is there something in the valley? 'cause again, looking at it through that medical model, people were, were kind of curious.

a book to, to get amongst and read that I really love is NeuroTribes. It sort of highlights where there have been these peaks and these troughs of awareness and then advocacy and then more importantly. Action. Um, I think to your point, it's, it's come back into the collective interest off the back of Covid where we saw a [00:09:00] huge amount of social activism colliding then with a time where we were all locked down.

, and adults who perhaps had, not recognized their own neurodivergent profiles were doing some digging. . Recognizing that either being at home was really supportive for them and asking questions around that and or finding the changes that were happening with that particular point in time. Really overwhelming.

And so seeking solutions, you know, we saw a lot of representation in the A DHD community, with women in particular standing up and speaking out about their late diagnosis. Uh, and a lot of questions as to, well, how could this possibly the case? So in the Neurodivergent community, you'll hear people talk about the lost generation.

, we can talk about if you're interested about why that might be the case. But a lot of these, uh, late diagnosis, myself. Being included in that of adults who have lived their entire life having to compensate for brain-based differences because they haven't understood why they show up in the world. Why we show up in the world the way we do.

, and that colliding with a point [00:10:00] in time in history where. We're all able to share our stories and social media, with others collectively at a, at a global scale. So, um, I think with that social activism, with our rising interest and awareness of better assessment processes, better protocol around diagnostics, , that has brought back into the, into the attention or the spotlight, the importance of neuro inclusion, um, that we'll talk to today, and why that relates to workplace design as well.

Melissa: , I don't mean to be dismissive and talk, calling it a hot topic

Mariane: No, not at all.

Melissa: and the reason I refer to it like that is because it's become, it's on every conference agenda now, and

In every workplace that I'm going into, it

seems to be a board item that's being discussed.

And there are questions that I'm being asked about neurodiversity in the workplace design that have never been raised before, and it would be only in the last two years that these are conversations that clients are bringing to me to respond to

Mariane: Yeah. I'm so pleased to hear that. It's [00:11:00] really, really exciting.

Melissa: Yeah, and I, I think there's definitely ways that we can be responding to this and, and that's kind of the crux of today's conversation because I

wanna dive in with you and really understand what it is that we can be doing from an environmental perspective in the way that we set up. And we create and we design our workplaces to support a much broader range of people.

Particularly the Neurodiverse community because we are creating environments where we want people to come to work. We want 'em to

thrive. We want them to excel. We want them to feel like they belong and that they really enjoy being there. But that means that we need to be considering a much broader range of people in the

spectrum. And what does that mean? That we need to be providing for all of these people to be able to feel. Comfortable

and that they're able to bring their best selves to work. And in the conversations that I'm having with various different clients throughout the course of these projects is that sometimes these conversations are becoming stalling points because

[00:12:00] clients aren't sure how to respond to queries that are coming up around people who are putting their hand up and saying, Hey, , I'm really uncomfortable with this. I'm not sure where this is going. You know, I had these requirements. How is this workplace gonna support me as an individual? So that's on one hand. And then

on the other hand, we've got, uh, leaders who are advocating for people within their teams that are identifying as neurodivergent and. Trying to create a supportive environment for them, but without actually sort of understanding all of the, the underlying, uh, requirements,

and then how do we create environments for them. So I'd be just curious, that's, I mean, that's a very big, broad question and we'll no doubt dive into smaller parts of it, but I just wanna sort of start there and say, this is what we're sort of seeing as, workplace designers and strategists

in the organizations we're dealing with.

Mariane: Yeah. And hearing you speak, there's a couple of points that I wanna sort of double click on, and one of them is, I heard you talk to that resistance that can come up, or the fear that comes up with, well, how do we have these hard [00:13:00] conversations? How do we identify who's in our workplace? What does a reasonable adjustment and accommodation look like?

Uh, and that's certainly a barrier that I've encountered in my work with organizations and with coaching employees or professionals as well. so I just wanna address that first and foremost. If we go back to the top of our conversation where we talked about, well, neurodiversity, if we think of it as simply as there is diversity, amongst all brains, then what we wanna be remembering is that.

There's really no two people alike in our workplaces, regardless of whether they're neurotypical or neurodivergent. And so in my work, , of course it's got that neuro inclusive, neuro affirming lens, but I really lean on universal design principles that are looking at how can we take the fear out of that individualized, personalized support that can come with thinking, oh, this is too much.

It's gonna take up too many resources, and actually just learn some of those communication phrases, those coaching prompts and reflective questions that help us to understand well. What are the brains in our [00:14:00] business? You know, who are the people that are coming to work? So some of the questions that are just as simple and can be as effective for everybody that I like to start with is, well, what do you need in your work environment in order to be at your best?

, so those types of questions. I think when we understand. That yes, they're absolutely essential for when we're working to accommodate and to understand people with brain-based differences. They're actually really beneficial for all. , so let's dive into a few more of those specific kind of, , yeah.

Individual queries that you are finding Mel in the workplace in terms of design. Where are people getting stuck?

Melissa: so one of them is particularly around where we are looking at going from individual owned desks to shared desking arrangements. And this is.

A big shift that's happening in the industry at the moment.

So one of those situations might be we've increased the amount of flexibility so that people can work from home or other locations not being required to attend the office as much. But in that, there's give and take. So if you've got flexibility, then you're not gonna be in five days a week. Then, you know, as a [00:15:00] business, we can't afford to be providing you with a desk for five days a week as your own.

Occupied space because you're not utilizing it. But in return for that, a lot of organizations are going, okay, well we're gonna reduce the number of workstations, but we're gonna increase all the amenities.

So we're getting quiet rooms, collaboration spaces, library spaces, cafe and breakout spaces. So we're getting a much greater diversity of space

that enables people to pick and choose where they're gonna work based on the tasks that they need to perform and their own individual preferences. So they're not

being assigned a seat, but they've got a huge amount of flexibility. In the actual physical workplace itself, but also, , flexibility in whether or not they're even coming into the workplace or working from home. Where I'm seeing a lot of pushback in that respect is that. There are some that are going well, I need my own desk because I like

routine and I like to be able to come here and I wanna have my things and all of those, those sorts of conversations are happening around that and whilst they appreciate that there's a, a [00:16:00]requirement from the business to correct less flexibility, or even if they do come in and sit at that same desk every day, they need to clear their belongings off.

Because they need to make it available should they not come in the following day and someone else needs to sit there. So there's some interesting nuances in that, and I've seen leaders advocating for their team to be able to have those dedicated spaces. But then there's also flexibility. So I mean, I could, there's a, I think there's a, a case for both sides, but I'd love to hear what your thoughts are.

Mariane: Yeah. That is such a tricky one, isn't it? I think what I find is the most curious part of all of these conversations is people's difficulty in holding two things side by side. So we can have two truths at once, right? Like flexibility is really great and it's really important and businesses have to be.

Profitable otherwise we don't have a workplace to go to. And so if we wanna create flexibility at work and we've all recognized that that is the best way for us to show up and to flourish and to thrive, then we also be, need, need to be looking at that sort of, that business question of, okay, [00:17:00] how do we do this in a way that we can keep the lights turned on?

So again, if I go to another truth, we know from the research that hot desking, , isn't great. And we know from the research that open. Planned spaces aren't great. , and that's for neurodivergent people and neurotypical people, and I can share the links to that research if you're interested at the same time.

That doesn't design for our dilemma of saying, okay, well we wanna increase flexibility at work and we need to be mindful of the spaces in order to have less people in them need to be smaller and therefore maybe they can't avail a a desk for every single person. So again, for me, this comes down to is there a co-design that's happening in the workforce?

Engaging the neurodivergent people as a community in order to be able to feed back and to iterate on some of these problems. Is there transparency from the leadership around some of the, the dilemmas that are being faced when there is a choice on the table as to how we provide, , flourishing environments at work?

And importantly, how much [00:18:00] psychological safety is there in order for those conversations to happen. 'cause there's one thing to say that we're providing a neuro inclusive environment on paper. , but if the action is that, well, in order to provide that neuro inclusive environment, there's been no communication with neurodivergent employees.

And in fact, does anybody know if any neurodivergent employees even exist in our workforce? You know, those, that, that doesn't work. All it looks like is a, is a pretty little picture on the wall and a policy that says. Ticker box, we did neuro inclusion. So really working with that participatory design or co-design where you've got neurodivergent stakeholders in those conversations and across all levels of the organization.

So not just in those employee support groups or employee resource groups, but actually across, you know, communications, um, in your HR divisions, across your leadership teams. You know, where is that representation? How is it visible and how are we communicating in a way that is transparent? Back [00:19:00] to our employees and to our people.

 even if we can't provide the best solution to be able to negotiate and say, Hey, this is what we're doing, and, and you know, from your perspective, , what would you like to see happen or, or where can you flex a little bit to meet us where we're at? Sometimes unfortunately, the reality of that conversation is that those two parties might come to the conclusion well.

This workplace isn't set up for me. And that is the reality. Of course. I'd like to think we're all doing our best to shift that reality. We know that we're seeing, a better, uh, engagement of neurodivergent people in the workforce because there is increased flexibility, , at least anecdotally. And I'm excited that there is some research happening in that space.

'cause historically speaking, our work places have been set up in ways that exclude neurodivergent people from being able to show up. So I'm hoping that with that increased disclosure with increased confidence, increased focus on psychological safety in the workforce in a way that really works for neurodivergent people, increased visibility and representation.

You know, this is [00:20:00] an iterative workplace. Design, , that needs to have accountability on both sides from the NeuroD diversion employee themselves and from the leaders who are engaging those design queries to be able to, to change the workplace up in a way that suits all,

Melissa: Yeah, so what you're saying there is getting people involved in the

conversations is really important. So part of the work that we do is we engage with the wide cross section of the

business to ensure that they are being consulted. They're. We are providing education and information around what are the options that are on the table and we are getting their input to understand, well what do you need?

How do you actually work? What's gonna support you best? Um, what's working about the current environment, what's not working about it? So we can start to build that landscape And sort of that shared understanding then of where we've got opportunity to grow. I think just going back to your conversation around hot desking, completely agree. that traditionally that hasn't worked well. Where

we are seeing a shift in that, and this is the, the bit that I wanna get to is [00:21:00] understanding because I don't have my own owned space versus having a variety of spaces that would support a, a wider variety of, particular requirements. So let's say. I really just wanna have some time out. I wanna go and focus, really concentrate on this piece of work that I need to do,

and there's a quiet room available to me where I can go and do that. I can control the sound, I can adjust the lighting in there. I can control my environment

and do that piece of work in that space. That's not somewhere I can go every single day because it's somewhere that I'm sharing with all of my colleagues. What's your take on that? Because I appreciate putting someone in a random desk and you know, they can just kind of hang out there versus being able to control their environment in that way for those sort of set periods of time.

Because we also know that we can't concentrate for, you know, long periods of time. So it's kind of like, let's go and spend 90 minutes in this space, head down, bum up, getting what I need to do. Done.

And then I can return to a different environment where I can either engage with a colleague or [00:22:00] engage in a, um, a brainstorming session.

Or I can go and sit at a window and look outside at the, the view. So there's different arrangements in that space. Be curious to know your thoughts on that.

Mariane: Yeah, gosh. I mean that sounds brilliant to me 'cause I love that type of environment where I can sort of chop and change and choose. but again, this probably comes down to that statement that I made earlier that, you know, there's no one neurodivergent person, no one person is the same or alike. And that's where having these coaching conversations I think can be really useful.

There's a big part of this as well, Mel, that I think is around psychoeducation, and education from the HR in terms of what is possible and what's. Not possible and where we can flex. , so in terms of the research around hot desking, you've raised a really good point. You know, traditionally that's been based on the assumption that you've got a desk oftentimes in an open plan office or even in a, um, you know, where there's a cubicle or of just four, for example, but not necessarily research that's looking at, well, how about those

office spaces that I'm imagining, as you are describing them, are almost like [00:23:00] cubicles that are set up intentionally with, with that, you know, ability to curate the environment. So that's a really different question altogether. what I have seen or what I have heard in terms of concern for people who are sort of, , given only the opportunity to Hot Desk is that.

Is incredibly stressful for people who's a part of their neurodivergent profile, is that they, uh, benefit from that stability, from that consistency, from being able to predict the environment around them. So you can imagine if, for example, , this is a case also for A DHD but also for autism, more sensitive to the environment, the environmental stimulus around us. So all the things that you've just mentioned, the light, the sound, the smell, the noises. , so hot desking in terms of also the physical proximity of, you know, am I, how high is the desk?

I mean, all of these things that to somebody who doesn't have that extra heightened sensitivity in their nervous system and in their body and, and that physical impact on the brain might seem. Really ludicrous. , but understanding how that [00:24:00] impacts a neurodivergent person, and I would say understanding what a really positive environment does look like for them.

Can be really helpful. And so sometimes the hot desking might not be an option for that person. And in order for them to do their work at their best, rather than getting the hot desk in the office, it might be that they benefit from that flexible work arrangement where they're needing to do their deep focus study time as, as you mentioned, or that hyper-focused time from home.

 It really depends on the individual, on the workplace, you know, why they're needing to come into work and what that space is designed for. , the other point around booking rooms, I'm much better than I used to be, but holy moly, if you tell me I needed to be able to figure out when I was gonna get in my flow zone and so book my, uh, my hot desk in two weeks time ain't gonna happen.

And so I guess we've also really gotta ask our questions of. Why are we providing these spaces? What's their intention? What's their purpose? And if the [00:25:00] output that we're wanting is that greater productivity or that higher creative performance, , for our employee to be at their best, then start to question some of the

perhaps more neurotypical systems that are very practical in nature because they work for neurotypical brains, but they're not, might not be well suited to a neurodivergent brain. So why I giggle about A DHD and scheduling, for example, , time blindness is, is one of our challenges for many of us. And so one, even thinking about time is problematic, but two, scheduling is problematic.

Three, I work with a lot of A DHD coaches who are still wrapping their head around. What sort of systems are set up to be able to remind them that yes, they did make that booking and yes, it is for now. And so we need to get to that space. So, you know, you're, you're, all you're doing is adding an extra cognitive load onto somebody that's playing to their weaknesses.

Instead of doing what I think the intention is to do, which is to set up a really beautiful curated space where somebody can go in and be at their [00:26:00] best and work at their best. Um, so again, I think for me, the design question is more around, okay, well let's reverse engineer. What are we trying to design for?

And so how can we. Do that in a backwards way that engages our neurodivergent people recognizing that everybody's gonna have a personalized approach and preference. There are some things that are collective. , but I think to this specific question, it's highly personalized.

Melissa: There's a couple of things in there that I wanna touch on and a hope thing that I can remember them all as we go through, but. The first one is, I think it comes down to a lot around etiquette. Then you talk about

booking systems and things. So I think that being clear about what's bookable, what's not bookable and how we operate and work in the space, I think is really important. Those quiet spaces that I was talking about, they're actually physical rooms,

so I can go in, I can shut the door, it's not just a cubicle, and I'm seeing the ratio of those compared to, you know, sort of open plan workstation setups rising quite considerably. And in my view, I think that. The tipping point's gonna start to happen where you see a lot more [00:27:00] collaboration and quiet spaces versus workstations because of the nature of work that we're seeing people come into the workplace to do, and those particular quiet rooms in the workplaces that I recommend are that they aren't bookable for exactly that reason.

Sitting at my desk, Okay.

I need to get into this zone, or I need

to take this phone call, or I need to do this. I just go and I see which one's available and I, I pop myself in there so they're not bookable. So

that's the one thing I'm thinking about. , the other thing that I wanna pick up on here is what if I'm in a larger organization and we've gotta do, you know, we've gotta create a very large workplace, you know, tens of thousands square meters, even a thousand square meters. And we're dealing with, you know, let's say 200 employees.

We've gotta create some sort of, um, environment that's. Catering to as many possibilities as we can,

but we can't go in and design for each individual. How would you recommend approaching those conversations with those [00:28:00] that are needing that extra support to really understand, well, how can I work best in this environment and how do we approach that from a perspective of that when in a way we are creating something that is. Available to them to work in, but

it's working in with the needs of the business and the space that needs to be created at the same time for a wider population.

Mariane: Yeah, great question. There's a lot in that too. The first thing that comes to mind, and I'm not sure if this is what you're wanting to pick up on, but is to differentiate between what's equitable and what's equal.

Melissa: Yes. Great. Great

Mariane: So I. Yeah, so where I started at the top and throughout this conversation around if we're designing for a neurodivergent person, actually we're, we are really benefiting all, and there is truth in that.

And again, we're gonna hold two things side by side because hopefully we can do that.

A neurodivergent person really needs these accommodations in order to show up and do their work without psychological stress, without physical stress. [00:29:00] When I say physical stress, let's also keep in mind a lot of our community has co-occurring differences.

So, and difficulties. So chronic health, disease, um, mental health difficulties that probably can be carers to neurodivergent families. So you're talking about. A vulnerable community group, which is why there's that difference between neurodiversity, which kind of encompasses everybody, and then neurodivergent.

So when I'm talking about neurodivergent people, we can say by the estimates we're talking about 20% of the population. So if you think about your massive workforce of 10,000, then we're actually designing for that pointy. Part of the 20%, even within that 20%, uh, you're gonna have people who fit within their, across the spectrum where their vulnerabilities are, , are fluctuating across time.

So we know, for example, uh, one of the reasons I'm struggling in this conversation today, more so than I possibly would be is because for A DHD, , my cognitive, uh, differences or my brain-based differences are [00:30:00] impacted by my hormones as a woman who is of a particular age, who's going through my perimenopause now, I can't do anything about that.

That's a biological vulnerability that I have to suck up, and that's really helpful if my workplace helps me accommodate around. So we know that there are fluctuations within our neurodivergent profiles that aren't the fault of the neurodivergent person, but that ideally will be flexible around. But again, we're talking about 20% and then a subsection of that 20% depending on their fluctuation.

So hopefully that makes sense. So then when we talk about that question of like, well, we need to be able to design a workplace so that everybody accesses their personalized flexibility. Yes. And. That can sit in that nice to have bucket a little bit in the sense that if we're doing well, how can we do better?

And that's a brilliant space that I love to play in. That's a different conversation and an important one from how do I reduce the [00:31:00] vulnerability of a particular population within my workforce? These are nuanced conversations. They're complex conversations and they're hard conversations.

, but I think it's really important to make that distinction between., there is a clinical need for workplaces to be mindful of, of mitigating against physical and psychological risk in a workplace. And part of that comes to the environment and that is for a particular proportion of their employees.

And there is opportunity to move our workplaces from doing well into really flourishing and thriving when we look at how do we design through those universal design principles in a way that suits all. And I think having that conversation, . More broadly with the workplace and helping to educate people on why some of these changes are coming in, that this isn't just a neurodivergent person.

Being needy or being difficult or, um, you know, stamping up and down on the latest trend and fad. , that actually this is about the workplace. Valuing inclusion, [00:32:00] valuing diversity, and wanting everybody to be able to have an equal footing to be able to perform at their best. And that at any time that conversation, ideally there's an open door to be had because everybody will have fluctuations in their circumstances.

That's my contribution. Other people will have different opinions, yeah, that's where I stand in terms of that equity and equality question.

Melissa: Yeah, and I think that's a really great place to start. And I think then if we go another step further, and I liked what you said, you know, we're doing well, how can we do better?

If we started to focus in on designing a workplace that was actually supporting that 20%, rather than just trying to accommodate them,

where would you start for that?

Mariane: . Yeah. So I think your question is getting towards that, and the neurodivergent community doesn't like this term. , it's got a, a negative connotation to it, but the functioning to flourishing. So more of that sort of, that, that thriving space. You know what's really interesting is a lot of the work

inclusion and [00:33:00] neurodiversity in the workplace. There's been a huge focus historically speaking, and I would say even today on saying, well, how do we get people into the workforce who are in neuro diversion? How do we make our workplaces more diverse? Because we've seen all the literature in the research that says, when you've got a diverse workforce, you've got greater instances of creativity, of product productivity, of performance, innovation.

There's been less attention paid to the fact that actually. We've got a high number of neurodivergent people in particular industries. So two that come to mind, is the tech industry. There was some research that showed that 53% of professionals in, in the tech industry identify as neurodivergent the advertising and marketing industry.

Um, similarly, 77% identified as having features, if not full criteria for A DHD.

Melissa: Engineering would be another high one I would suggest.

Mariane: Potentially, I haven't seen any specific stats, but, but certainly when I'm working with engineering organizations, it's a conversation that's of interest. And so then [00:34:00] we're again, thinking to that population of neurodivergent people.

If we think again that this is a referred to myself just recently with my own A DHD where I've got fluctuations in my functioning. Or my ability to perform at different levels. this is where we start to have that really nuanced, interesting discussion around, well, at what point is the neurodivergent profile needing to be accommodated or adjusted for versus, uh, you know, is this a disability and or are we going from functioning to flourishing?

Again, I think that functioning to flourishing space, for me, , the solution or the opportunity lies in helping people to understand the strengths and the weaknesses that come with their unique cognitive profile. And learning those performance skills, learning those organizations skills, having those coaching conversations

that are specific to their neurotype. So there's no point me going and learning a whole bunch of neurotypical scheduling standards that are just going to wreak havoc with my A DHD [00:35:00] brain. There is every point learning where those brain-based differences show up as deficits and at their worst disability for me.

And putting in things like AI tools, , safety spaces. Mapping out my calendar so I know when I can be at my high performance peak versus when I know I'm probably gonna have a week where it's a little bit, ooh, touch and go as to can I be in my high performance? So that scope for personalized coaching to help raise the self-awareness of somebody who is sitting in that doing really well.

But hey, we could be seriously thriving here. And that again, of course comes down to that workplace environmental adjustment. So we know with the neurodivergent profile, the environment. Always wins. sometimes those changes can be much more slight. It can be things like having access to a table that is next to the pot plant, , not being opposite a bright, glaring window because light actually really aggravates you.

Remembering that for a lot of neuro divergent [00:36:00] adults in particular, they're coming into diagnosis a lot later. They haven't been exposed to a lot of the, , supports, interventions, , information if you like. As a

child. Yeah.

And even as a, as an adult, I mean, my diagnosis didn't come about until I was in my late thirties.

So, , I'd moved a whole way through parenthood, through entrepreneurship, through starting, you know, my company , and doing fine, don't get me wrong, but there was always a sense of, ah, I feel like I'm just underperforming to my potential here. Um, and there was some compensatory strategies and some masking strategies that sort of left me with that feeling of I.

I, I could be doing better. And so I'm really interested in, in that piece as well. particularly because we know across the lifespan there are gonna be , those environmental changes and stresses that will impact somebody's ability to show up and be at their best. . So, yeah, again, I think it's, it's a nuanced conversation.

It deserves that individual personalized approach, but there's definitely scope [00:37:00] and space for neuro inclusive training that raises awareness of what types of supports are available, uh, what types of modifications are available and helpful and why.

Melissa: . And I like what you said there about the fact that, you know, we're all gonna be fluctuating

and you know, as women, we fluctuate every month like.

So it's. Being more cognizant of that, and I think

this is something that I've become much more interested in and more conscious of is the way that our performance does ebb and flow throughout the course of a month based on our hormonal differences and

how the fact that we've never thought about this to compensate for it or to consider it in the way that we plan or you know, the

way that we even work. And yet this is something that people with these brain-based differences are needing to consider on another level, day in and day out as well. But what I think it's telling us is that our workplaces do need to be much more flexible, much more adaptable

to the individual users.

And it's a bigger [00:38:00] conversation.

And that's one thing that brings me back to, is that. What I am observing in a lot of workplaces is that capacity for the leaders to have these conversations like the, the leadership capability and the maturity within that cohort isn't always there to be

able to have these conversations.

So you talk about coaching and supporting some of these employees. When their leaders don't have that capability, what can organizations do? What can individuals do? Like what, where does this sit? And you know, and I'm not saying that leaders aren't doing a good job because they're doing the best that they can with what they've got available to them. And as you said, these are things that are becoming more and more to the forefront.

And they're conversations that are being had, but we're not equipped with the skills

to be able to have these deep conversations. What can we do to start to support these better?

Mariane: Yeah, it's a really good point. And, and I think it is funny 'cause I, I worked a lot in education under [00:39:00] another social enterprise that I co-founded with my sister. And the same conversation would come up, you know, we're asking of our workforces to really pivot and change and adapt and be, more cognizant of the diversity of needs.

. And it doesn't really matter where you sit on your opinion as to whether or not that's the right thing to do. It's the smart thing to do. So there's that. Um, so if we think it, it is, you know, and the stats, the stats really back that up. So I think. If I think of my leaders in the same way, I used to think of principals in schools and I think of a leader who's saying, well, I've got all of these other competing demands on my desk right now.

Why is this an important conversation? And my argument to that is, well, if you don't know the brains in your business, you dunno where your weakness and your vulnerability points are, and you dunno where your success points are either. And so how can you possibly be talking about driving productivity, mitigating risk, , increasing your performance outcomes if you don't know and [00:40:00] care, or importantly about the people Who doing that with and, and for you? , so I think I'd start there, but again, I think this is where I'm noticing where there are really successful programs being rolled out and initiatives being rolled out, by um, some of the, companies, the firms small, medium, big, who are really embracing your inclusion.

There is somebody who is assigned the role of being a leader in the space and not from a top down hierarchical position of, I'm the leader of neuro inclusion and therefore this is what we're doing. But it is their job to do the heavy lifting and the hard work of, okay, well what do our people need? Who is in our workforce?

Do we have a culture of safety where there is disclosure and or are we needing to build that over time? You know, where are we actually at in terms of our stages of change and our stages of growth in our neuro inclusive journey in the same way that we have other. Divisions, you know, at, at the top of the, of the company.

Let's talk about a CEO. The CEO is not making all of the decisions and doing all the research [00:41:00]on how to market their business. They tend to have a chief marketing officer. Well, I'd love to see that chief inclusion officer come into the workplace, and this is a really contentious issue. And why I said at the, at the beginning of my statement, you know, de, depending on where you're sitting, unfortunately, we're seeing us move in to a period of time where DEI is getting

backlash. So when I say DEI, for people who aren't familiar, that's diversity, equity, inclusion. , I think that's partly because there's been a lack of understanding of what the role encompasses. I think there's, of course, like anything, there's gonna have been instances where DEI hasn't been run effectively.

And so it's, it's worthwhile questioning any division where there is a need for accountability, but largely so it's, people I think not understanding the, the connection between yes, this is the right thing to do and it's also the smart thing to do. And when we're running a business, , regardless of your social values, I think we can all agree that it is smart to wanna keep the [00:42:00] lights on.

for me it's how can we support our leaders to have. The system structures around them, , where somebody is in charge of, of this being their job and because they care and because they're informed and because they genuinely understand the business case as well as the social case for diversity inclusion.

I feel like I'm gonna ruffle a lot of feathers.

Having said that, that's a very

Melissa: No.

Mariane: difficult time to be working in this space. I have to be honest. And again, it goes back to the holding the two things side by side. it's challenging. I think anybody in the space is, is feeling, more vulnerable. So I was thrilled at the top of this conversation, Mel, to hear you say that, that it is a conversation that is remaining in Australia.

I think we need to be really mindful that we're a point of history where the good work that is being done and that is continuing to be done is under threat. And I think that it's important to be mindful of that and to protect what we've been able to grow and evolve into as people.

Melissa: [00:43:00] Yeah, and I think it's really important conversation, and hence the reason I wanted to have this conversation with you today because . It's happening in organizations, but there's

not the confidence or the depth of understanding there to be

able to kind of move forward with it. So it becomes this thing where it gets stuck at a board level and they're not sure, okay, well what do we do with this?

And so to your point about having a chief inclusion officer would help to start disseminate that and actually make it work down into the business rather than being stuck at this board level conversation because you know, a group of employees have raised this as a concern and they're not sure how to deal with it because I'm seeing it sit in that people and culture team.

A lot of time workplace is driven by property, so there's already a massive disconnect, and that's one of my bandwagons that I'm on, is to bring property and people and culture

Together because we don't design spaces for people to facilitate and asset manage.

We design spaces for people who are going to come there and do their best work in them. So it

makes sense [00:44:00] to bring these two avenues together and then to be able to progress that conversation In an informed way. And I think as a workplace strategist and designer, I'm in a unique position to bring that conversation to the table and

you know, shine the light on it and help these organizations navigate this way forward and go, well, we've got this environment now, what can we do to make that better?

Like, how can we, how can we improve? And circling back to my original sort of statement is that some of the time it's that fear of change that is making resistance, because you're seeing people not understanding where the shift in the workplace is going,

even though I know that what we are doing is actually improving tenfold on the environment that they have now, but they haven't got the visibility or the understanding of that at that point in time to be able to. To, to be able to weigh into that conversation with any real knowledge of it.[00:45:00]

And so then there's this fear response that comes from the leadership team because they're going, well, we haven't engaged with these people. We don't understand it. And so now we are just, we are not sure what to do. So it kind of becomes this sticking point.

Mariane: Yeah, a hundred percent. And that's where I think that continuous feedback, that iterative those iterative conversations, deciding who is responsible in the organization for, for holding accountability of, well, if we've decided that there is gonna be a change, what data have we got to support

 the rationale for that change and then how we're gonna be implementing, but how we're gonna take our people through that process and then how we're gonna report back to say, Hey, this is what we've done. This is the obstacles or the opportunities that we've identified and here's how we

to collect your feedback and, and to keep that as that continual feedback loop. I think that's, that's so important. Going back to that idea of, , the Chief Inclusion Officer, which, you know, just came outta my mouth as it does when I'm on a podcast. Um, I also think, again, it's interesting, I guess maybe [00:46:00] it's the entrepreneurial mind, that I have, but I almost wonder if this is a huge rebranding activity. And not that I think that we should have to, I'd love for people to be able to hear the word inclusion and, and feel a warm space in their heart because that's the person I am. That's a future that I wanna see created in the world, and I can hold that, that word for some , has brought with it a connotation and it's brought with it a whole association of other assumptions.

'cause a lot of the time that's what they are. And so I wonder if we start to think about, well, why is inclusion important to us? Why is diversity important to us? Why do we wanna make these changes? And again, to your point about siloing some of these responsibilities, you know, I also encourage when I go into organizations.

F for those leaders to start thinking about, well, who is already in your organization doing this good work? You know, is there visibility around that? We could actually empower up an employee resource or support group. You know, are there leaders across all [00:47:00] areas? Of the division that we can draw on to, to pull together and say, you know, what is that collective voice?

And if there's not, you know, is there the way to look at some different other departments where this does actually tap into? So, so when we're talking about neuro inclusion, of course we're talking about diversity, equity, inclusion, uh, we're talking about hr, but we're also talking about risk management.

So in Australia, with psychosocial safety legislation, we need to be able to identify and mitigate for risk. Now again, if you don't know the brains in your business, then you don't know what that risk profile looks like. Uh, so I think that it's also about broadening our understanding around why neuro inclusion at any type of, of inclusive design , is again, significant as a business imperative and as a social imperative for us to be able to design a kind of future, the kind of future that we want our kids

to walk into a workplace for.

I get off these calls and I think, oh wow. I hope I haven't over complicated it for all the [00:48:00]listeners, but it really does come back to having the skills that I would again say are very transferrable about how do you actually have a heart to heart authentic conversation that's productive and constructive and kind with the people in your business?

And whether that's for neuro inclusion, whether that's for any type of of diversity, whether it's type for any type of change, whether it's for performance management, if that's where you have to end up. Being able to communicate in that way, , through that service-based leadership model. Through that, that kindness and through compassion of recognizing that we're all coming to work, hopefully with an intention to be and do our best, you know, those skills are highly transferable.

And I would argue, especially as we're stepping into this is a whole other podcast, but this era of AI and tech, those human skills, um, leaders really need to be double tapping on right now.

Melissa: Yeah. And that leads me into my final question for you is how can leaders start to have these conversations [00:49:00] with more sensitivity and more empathy in their workplace?

Mariane: Oh, it, it sounds almost too simple to be true after having had a big, you know, nuanced conversation. But just asking the question, you know, going back to the top of our conversation today of, what does good look like for you? how can you show up and do your best in this workplace, and if I can't get to an answer there, then thinking about a time when you were at your best, what did that look like?

What were some of the conditions? What were some of the, the people around you that supported you, what were some of the environments? That supported you and recognizing that, um, you know, I think there's a, there's an over emphasis on, , neuro inclusive adjustments and practices being the responsibility of the neuro divergent employee themselves, but recognizing that this is really, this is a change in awareness journey that we need to go on together.

And it's just as likely that your neurodivergent professional or employee is, is still [00:50:00] learning about themselves and that's okay. So you can learn together. Being really open, transparent, and kind. , letting your people know that they matter that what you're working for together matters. for, for me, it just comes, it comes down to those core principles.

I say it time and time again of being a good human,

Melissa: Yeah. Good place to start.

Mariane: good place to start. Good place to

Melissa: and it's, and like I like what you said there, it's about learning about this together, exploring, experimenting, trying things. Some things aren't gonna work, some things are gonna fail. But learning from that and going, okay, well how can we do this differently?

And just kind of continuing to change and, and try new things.

Mariane: Yeah, I will add to that. Actually, before we go, um, just in case anyone's not feeling specific enough, the research is really clear. There's been a tendency to have lived experience storytelling come in as keynotes and lunch and learns. Um, and that's really helpful, especially when there's not that visibility already in the workforce or where it's not an, you know, a, a workforce that's openly talked [00:51:00] about neuro inclusion.

But the research is clear that, that has a stop point or an an end to its efficacy unless we then to your point, equip our leaders and our teams with that clinical expertise and research based insights of how to actually translate this lived experience knowledge into business based action.

And so that's where having some support. Both with the lived experience, story sharing, whether that be internally within the people in your organization or having an external speaker come into the organization or seeking out stories, books, resources, podcasts, but then also marrying that in, whether it be a consultant, whether it be somebody within your organization where they're, this is an interest area of theirs or, or upskilling them in the skilling them and educating those two points.

A lived experience and the clinical expertise is what drives that real inclusive change.

Melissa: Yeah. Amazing. And so. If people were looking to get support on this, that's exactly where your wheelhouse is. Marianne, how do people get in contact with you? What can you do to [00:52:00]support them and what resources are there out there for them to start?

Mariane: Yeah, I'm amongst a really beautiful community, I have to say, in Australia, of people doing incredible work, and we all bring really different strengths to the table. , so happy to, to make some connections. Uh, my specific area of interest is in, . Supporting Neurodivergent leaders, but also in consulting into inclusive workplaces and helping to start some of these conversations.

Uh, so you can find my work at my name, marianne power.com au. and happy to have a chat. And if it's not me, put you in the direction of, of the right kinds of supports. , I put you in that. Equation as well, Mel, doing some beautiful work to create inclusive spaces from that environmental perspective. So I really look forward to hearing about the designs that you're working on and, and having some further conversations with you about this as well.

Melissa: Oh, thank you. And we'll pop all of those links in the show notes. And there are some exciting things that are happening in this space, but

it is, it's slowly moving the needle. . I think it's just about being really aware and conscious that there are these [00:53:00] requirements to consider a multitude of people and individual work requirements and and needs in our workplaces, and to do the best that we can to support them with what we've got available to us.

But thanks so much for joining me today.

Mariane: Good to see you, Mel. We'll speak soon.

Melissa: Chat soon.

Thank you so much for joining us today. As you can see, Maryanne and I covered quite a bit of ground in today's conversation, but there's a couple of things that I just wanted to leave you with that might support you in designing and creating your next workplace, and that's the first one's around getting some shared understanding of language.

Now, we spoke to hot desking a bit today, and I completely agree with all of Marianne's sentiments and the research around why hot desking. Is not great for our workplaces, but I wanna differentiate that between what we are looking at in terms of an A BW or a workplace that is designed for hybrid working because a hot disking environment is traditionally.

whole group of workstations where you basically fight for a desk in an environment where there are less desks than there are people. [00:54:00] The difference between that and when we start talking about an A BW or a hybrid work environment is that we are actually creating an environment with a suite of diverse spaces that support a wide range of different working requirements to support different tasks and needs.

So yes. In its main principle, there may still be workstations in that environment and there are less workstations than there are people. However, there is also all these other spaces that are supporting the different needs and task requirements of the individuals covering off quiet rooms, library spaces, individual quiet corners, collaboration spaces of a multitude of different types and styles, breakout spaces, meeting spaces, all of this diversity.

In the environment that supports this wider variety of working styles and supports, the different requirements of individuals. So just wanted to make that distinction there so that we're all having this shared language. And it's a really good place to start when you are [00:55:00] looking at your workplace, requirements because.

Having a clear understanding and that shared language across the workforce is going to enable you to be able to have clear communication with your employees and across your leadership team as to what you are actually trying to achieve. The other thing that is really important from the conversation we had with Marianne was about how we can then support that 20% of your employee population That do have those neurodiverse differences to feel and perform their best at work, and a lot of that comes down to individual support and conversations. Now at Community, we support our organizations that we work with through our change leadership program, which is about onboarding and employees back into the workplace.

This is about supporting the leaders to understand how change is actually going to show up and influence and impact each. Individual person's performance, the process that they're gonna go through, then the change curve, how they're gonna resist it, how they're gonna get angry about it, and then [00:56:00] eventually how they are going to become accepting of it.

But the other piece that is important there is that we actually understand the etiquettes, the spaces that we have and how we are required to operate with them. Now for those people that are on the 20% that Maryanne referred to is how can we have more individualized conversations with them and coach them through looking at the different tasks and activities that are required of them in their individual roles, and then making a plan for which spaces within the work environment are best gonna support them to be able to perform and do those tasks to the best of their ability.

And which tasks are not gonna be able to be done in the workplace. And as Maryanne suggested, the flexibility is there for them to be able to do those and work from home. So there's a lot of different ways that we can start to get some shared understanding in terms of language and create a shared understanding in terms of what is gonna be best supporting these individuals.

Now the other thing that Marianne has just asked me to remind you of as well, is that [00:57:00]sometimes the lack of resources or the lack of funding can be, Something that gets in the way of actually proceeding and, and doing these changes. And so there is an employee assistance fund, and we're gonna drop that link to that into the show notes.

But this is a government funded initiative to support individuals within workplaces to access funding for coaching, training, resources, and even modifications to your workplace. So the physical environment to support those neurodivergent employees. so you can get up to $62,000 per neurodivergent employee to support this work happening in your workplace.

So we'll drop a link to that one in the show notes. But as always, if there's anything that I can support you with to take you through this and enable you to manage this the best that you can through your journey, please don't hesitate to reach out. You can get me at Melissa at community C-O-M-U-N-I-T i.com au.  [00:58:00]